What constitutes a clash? by Denis Hurley

by Denis Hurley

Clearly, given the subject matter of my previous two contributions on here, the issue of change kits is one that interests me quite a lot.

There has been plenty of discussion about clashes in the various comment threads on the site and so, after more pestering, John has allowed more once more to spout my ill-informed and uneducated opinions.

It’s a tough task I have decided to tackle – namely what constitutes a clash, and the various ways clashes are dealt with, while leaving aside the fact that many teams wear away and third kits simply to sell more shirts.

We can all agree that, fairly obviously, if two teams have the same, or very similarly, coloured shirts, a change is required, but what of ‘partial clashes’, where is the tipping point? If opposing sides have the same colour sleeves, is it allowed? To what extent do stripes cause clashes with solid shirts? And do shorts and socks contribute to a clash?

We shall try to answer these questions, but the real objective is to get a debate going, one which some people will no doubt want to partake in with different views to mine!

For our money, the issue could be dealt with far more efficiently, often it seems as if the person deciding on changes or lack thereof is reading descriptions of the kits rather actually looking at them.

For a prime example of this, look at another code of football, rugby union, where Scotland or Italy always change when they clash in the Six Nations, despite there being no confusion between bright blue and navy blue. The other side of that coin is that changes in England-Argentina rugby games have only become common in recent times due to England wanting to sell alternative jerseys.

While things are not that bad in football, there are some quibbles, though obviously it is ultimately the decision of a referee and each one is different, for example Howard Webb, a World Cup final referee, allowed this game http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/jermaine-jenas-of-tottenham-holds-off-steven-reid-of-news-photo/57002770 to go ahead in 2006 when Blackburn failed to bring another kit to White Hart Lane.

The far end of the spectrum in terms of avoiding clashes is seen at World Cups and European Championships, where an avoidance of dark-v-dark or light-v-light is often desired, as well the minimisation of the same colour appearing prominently on both sides’ kits.

Even so, there is some inconsistency with this approach. For example, in 2002 England-Brazil was deemed to be a clash but Brazil-Germany in the final was not. More recently, Italy and Spain were both allowed to wear home kits in their two Euro 2012 ties, while Croatia changed from a predominantly white kit to all-blue against the Republic of Ireland, when Ireland in all-green and Croatia in their usual kit would surely have worked better if a contrast was being sought.

The major tournaments do tend to seek to sort what I have termed the ‘overall clash’, basically where the kit is viewed as one whole rather than three distinct parts. An example of this happening is when Everton would play Leeds and Leeds would wear blue shorts, when staying in all-white would have been a better solution rather than introducing a colour worn by their opponents.

I feel that the shorts and socks can have a big effect, and would cite last Saturday’s game between Newcastle and Tottenham at St James’ Park. Spurs have an all-white home this season and an all-navy away, with a third (“to be advised”, according to the Premier League Handbook) set to be black and grey, so a satisfactory solution was always going to be difficult.

spurs-newcastle

If Newcastle’s home still had a mainly black back, I would have felt that all-white was fine, but as it is the back is white, so Spurs in navy-white-white had potential for confusion. It brought to mind, but was not as bad as, Newcastle’s cup game with Tranmere Rovers in 2000, when the Toon’s changing of shorts made a bad situation worse (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/andy-parkinson-of-tranmere-rovers-challenges-aaron-hughes-news-photo/1521399).

Striped shirts against a team with the colour of one of the stripes is allowable in my book, once the short and socks do enough to differentiate. Watching Celtic in their narrow hoops recently made think that they could play a team in all-green without a change, but if they had green shorts or socks then this would not be possible.

The overall clash is far more important than comparing teams’s shirts, shorts and socks separately, in my view. I would allow Arsenal and Barcelona to play each other this season in their home kits, and while I would stop short of letting Liverpool and Ajax do the same, if Ajax’s stripe was narrower it could work.

barca-arsenal

On the subject of sleeves, Arsenal have often changed against sides in white (though only once against Spurs), and some referees, particularly in the League of Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Buttimer), have a problem with it. It was therefore very surprising when, in the 2010-11 season, Arsenal wore yellow away to Blackpool despite having theoretically retained the previous season’s navy away a third choice.

On stripes v stripes, I would retain the same view regarding the shorts and socks, for example Stoke in white shorts and socks against Newcastle in black shorts and socks is manageable, but the Tyne-Wear Derby is somewhat more problematic.

For a time the away side would change but to the best of my knowledge this has not happened since the early 90s, though last year Newcastle apparently wanted to wear their orange away (http://www.wsc.co.uk/weekly-howl/1004-2011/7641-weekly-howl-19-08-11), not considering how this would impact against a side in red and white.

And maybe that’s the bottom line, that there is not enough thought put into the whole thing. At least it gives us kit aficionados something to talk about.

www.prideinthejersey.com

1,103 Replies to “What constitutes a clash? by Denis Hurley

  1. Funnily enough, Denis, I was thinking about Barcelona and Arsenal only the other day – as they always seem to meet in the Champions League! I agree with you, I think this season there wouldn’t need to be a change. I’m not sure though why Liverpool wearing red would be a problem though?

    By the way, what away kit did Blackburn have that season? When they wore their home kit at White Hart Lane.

    As you know Denis, I don’t really go along with the overall clash thing. In the example given, if I were a referee, I would want Everton in blue-white-blue, and Leeds in white-blue-white – rather than both teams having the same colour shorts. I’m not saying shorts clashes are a big problem, but I think every part of each team’s kit should be different. I don’t like it when a goalkeeper wears the same colour shorts and socks as the opposition outfield players. To be honest, I think that probably just comes from growing up watching a Football League team in 1990’s – when shorts clashes hardly ever occured.

    Interesting article, Denis.

  2. Ah, I see Denis – no worries.

    I bet if Arsenal and Barcelona did play each other in the Champions League this season, both away teams would switch to an away kit, just because they always have, and that is still the mindset.

    You do find that sometimes. Like Man United wearing a change kit at Southampton in the FA Cup a couple of years ago, even though Southampton had that white kit that season.

  3. What I realised in recent years, particularly in the Premier League, is that black and white are colours that do not ‘clash’ with regards to shorts, sleeves or to striped shirts. For example, Arsenal would only change their socks away against Swansea or Sunderland play with their home strip away to Spurs (although they changed against Swansea this year).
    When those kind of clashes regards other colours then a change is needed e.g. Man City will have to change to their third black and grey shirt away to West Ham and Aston Villa due to the clash of sky blue sleeves with sky blue shirts and claret shirts with City’s away maroon shirts.
    What I’m curious about this year, though, is what will Stoke wear away at Liverpool, Arsenal, Southampton and Man Utd as both their strips have red stripes!

  4. I don’t doubt for a minute that they’d change Eric, and United at Southampton is a great example. On a related note though, they must have done their homework this year as they wore white last week whereas they normally wouldn’t (with 1997-98 a notable exception)

  5. Denis,
    Very thought provoking – There have been a lot of comments on these pages recently regarding this issue. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it was financially motivated – very little thought seems to go into strip selection in the UK, other than cash through the tills. I have always found it strange over the years how red teams deal with playing Crystal Palace, especially if they have a blue away (similar situation to Barcelona/Arsenal). As an afficianado of German football, the Bundesliga seem to be much more strict in these situations, and the kit suppliers/clubs pick logical solutions in the first place, making the official’s jobs easier. For example, Bayern Munchen usually go back to a white away, alternated with a dark third, meaning that playing a team with large areas of red AND white never presents a problem – just wear the third. Sadly, in England since the advent of the Premier League, multiple strips have reached epidemic proportions, with seemingly NO thought going into their creation, and the FA seem oblivious – a half baked attempt at curtailing it a few years ago with the ‘expiry date’ idea seems to have been brushed aside. Has anyone noticed how ALL strips these days seem to be marketed as single seasons, even if the intention IS to carry them over? I appreciate the selling of replica strips is an important side of football these days, but if Bayern can turn a profit twelve years in a row despite (mostly) alternating home and away shirts on a two year cycle, isn’t it about time they returned to the idea in England?

  6. I don’t think are that bad, Martyn.

    The “financial motivation” thing doesn’t really wash with me. Sure, kits are a big money maker for a lot of clubs, and obviously a lot of thought is put into what the fans would want to buy, but would, for example, the purple Liverpool third kit have sold less if it was white, or yellow? I don’t think so. I think it’s just poor planning. And, it doesn’t happen too often really, when you think about it.

    I think away kits are marketed as a single season kit, simply because advertising the new Arsenal away kit, as the Arsenal 12/13 away/13/14 third kit – just doesn’t really come across well. And, let’s be honest, how often is the carried over away kit going to be used the following season? Maybe once in an emergency? You’re probably opening up the club to criticism from the those silly fans who would be all “I thought this kit was going to be used for two seasons, but we’ve only worn it once this season!”

    Where as if you just advertise it as a single season away kit, and quietly carry it over the following season as an emergency third kit, that fan who bought the kit might see it as a bit of a bonus when he sees it being worn in that one match where both the home and away kits couldn’t be used. Which maybe creates a little bit of goodwill.

    Personally, I think people are little obsessed with the two-year cycle. It’s gone and it’s not coming back. I’m fine with it really. I’m not against two-year cycles though. I like what Arsenal have done recently. They had two home kits which last for the single season, and this season they have a new home kit which will last for two seasons. Teams shouldn’t be releasing three new kits each and every season though, like Chelsea do. It is unnecessary, and just leads to barely used forgotten third kits. Like this season, Chelsea should have just released the new home kit, and new away, and had last seasons black away kit as the new third kit, rather than releasing a new black kit.

    Anyway, we have kind of already had this discussion elsewhere, we should get back to clashes!

  7. Denis Why were Ireland wearing their away kit in kazakhstan last night.I wouldnt have thought that there would have been that big a similarity in kits between green and blue.

  8. This article had to be written. I agree with all of it. Thank you, Denis.

    Eric, the purple Liverpool kit exists – and the yellow doesn’t – because Warrior concluded that it would sell (and the yellow wouldn’t). There’s a very interesting interview that a marketing guy (obviously ex adidas/Umbro) from Warrior did with the We Are The Redmen thing where he admits as much.

    Of course we know a yellow Liverpool change kit would have been better than the purple but apparently yellow isn’t a great colour for sales – which may be another reason why United don’t use it anymore. The sad fact is that, whilst we’re passionate about football kits, our opinions don’t necessarily reflect the sales.

  9. Fair enough, Jay.

    Yellow is a very “in your face” colour, so why not white? But, fair enough, if they have admitted they choose purple because they thought it would sell well.

    It still doesn’t get a way from the point I made, this isn’t happening all over the place. Yes, this season we have Liverpool and Tottenham, and you have to also take into consideration that they are two new companies. I just don’t think it’s quite the problem some make it out to be. Like the majority of teams are just having kits that all look similar because they sell well, and are causing clashes all over the place. It doesn’t happen very often.

  10. @Ciarán – Not really sure, just something that seems to happen a lot, e.g. against Italy and France in WC10 qualifiers, Switzerland in EC04 and WC06 quals. Probably trying to generate sales

  11. Great article Denis! Jay, your comments about the selling of a Liverpool yellow kit summarises what I believe is a major flaw developing in the kit world – namely, the requirements of replicas determining what designs are produced. Obviously this is why black away shirts are so widespread as well, but this ‘tail wagging the dog’ scenario could well end in tears.

  12. I remember when I started following football in the early 90’s, the two year kit cycle was an exciting way to start the new season – knowing that every team would be using at least one new kit. Third kits were not that common through the league then – now everyone has them. The point I was trying to make was one discussed on this page before – namely that kit sales seem to be driven by marketing rather than neccessity. Whichever marketing bod said yellow kits don’t sell that well obviously forgot that the Brazil home is one of the biggest selling kits in the world historically. The lifespan thing was just an observation…Two year spans for home/ away kits and one season thirds just seems the way forward for me. I know fans sometime moan about existing colour schemes being re-hashed, and apologies for going back to the Bundesliga again, but since the mid 00’s, Bayern’s white kits have been VERY different – white with blue and red swirls/ white with silver hoops and navy trim/ white with flourescent orangey red, meaning they are different enough to be considered new, despite the same base colour. And what is wrong with that? With regards to Arsenal, Nike are just worried that if they reverted to the traditional away colours of yellow & blue every season or every other season, they wouldn’t NEED a third kit…If that’s not commerce driving selection I don’t know what is.

  13. To be fair, Martyn, regarding Arsenal and Nike with third kits, Arsenal very rarely release a new third kit.

    It’s nearly always the away kit from the previous season, being carried over. This season see the yellow kit being used as a third kit for the second season, and it was the away kit the season before that.

    I think the only times they have released a new third kit since 2000, was the red and navy blue hoops in 07/08, and the white and grey kit in 09/10.

  14. #13 – I suppose there arent that many internationa teams that wear Green in Europe so as you say its a good way to generate sales.We came close to losing another match in it as well!

    Good article.Its always difficult for the big teams to get it right wrt kit selection.Especially for a team in red like man uts/arsenal/liverpool because the adidas/nike/pumas will want to make shirts with 1/2 different colours thrown in.even more so in europe if they qualify.

    Speaking as a leicester fan its not that big an issue I believe in the championship even though blue is the dominant colour here.No bad colour clashes probably due to striaghtforward blue home designs.

    Whats with the early posting.You heading up to the All ireland final today?

  15. I think we’re being a bit kind to Warrior and Under Armour if we let them off because they’re new (to football). Surely this is even more reason to tread carefully and ensure the kits are fully functional as well as saleable?

    The idea that yellow kits don’t sell well is actually more specific to Liverpool rather than necessarily a general rule (I infer about United) and I think stems particularly from the ’04 and ’06 Aways not selling – which could be attributed to Carlsberg ruining the latter by insisting their logo was in green and the former being Godawful.

  16. its a bit of a minefield this whole area. to really conquer it every team would need to know their opposition well in advance which is not possible with the Champions league/Europa league draws in august and the cup fixtures a short time before the actual fixture takes place. Arsenal v Lens in the 2000 Uefa cup is another good example. Owing to the navy shorts and socks and the trim on the shirts you could tell the teams apart at least on TV but apparently Arsenal were tempted to change. that same year Arsenal made a balls up vs Sparta Prague trying to market their navy blue shirt which goes to show kits are being used out of marketing now rather than necessity.

  17. if teams were to use common sense and use one off kits in the event of a clash then i feel the authorities should give them the flexibility to do so. teams seem to be limited by the fact the league expects a declaration of their uniforms before the start of the campaign. That said clubs dont make it easy on themselves. Spurs knew a long time ago that they would be playing Newcastle, Fulham and Swansea so therefore they should have had the cop on and instructed under armour to design them an away kit that totally contrasts those 3.

  18. The way I see it is that there are two types of colour clash, paper and real. It may be that when reading descriptions of the kits of two opposing teams it appears that there will be a clash whereas if you see the kits side by side this is not necessarily the case. The opposite scenario is also true. This is why I keep harping on about the need for the leagues to emply a kit coordinator. Someone who has access to the actual kits and can make an informed decision on behalf of both teams.

    On an unrelated matter Denisenis given that you appear to be a golfer have you noticed that ‘kits’ seem to be appearing in golf, for example prior to the majors, Adidas will publish the outfits to be worn on each of the four days by its prominent players such as Sergio and Dustin Johnson. Puma similarly do this for Rickie Fowler.

  19. Yeah, that has become a big thing in recent years Mark, so much so that the golfers have little or no say in what they wear, the stuff is just delivered to them with instructions on what to wear each day. Of course, they can look silly when the four outifts are revealed in advance and they don’t make the cut!

    Sometimes, I worry that I spend too much time worrying about my outfits than my driving, of course.

  20. I don’t think this matter will be resolved quickly, but a kit co-ordinator would be a step in the right direction. I’ve never said on these pages that kits SHOULD stick to rigid designs, I like it when new things are tried, just honouring traditional home and/or away (where a club is well known for a particular colour scheme away from home – eg. Arsenal yellow & blue or Man City red & black) colours would be nice. I accept that two year lifespans may be coming to an end, but it would be nice if clubs/suppliers DID honour it. Maybe I’m hoping for a lot for a multi billion Euro/Pound/Dollar industry to put the fans first for a change!

  21. Ok, going back to John’s point (14), I have to admit that I’m totally for kits being produced based around what will sell well, simply because the purpose of replica sales is to fund the club in its pursuit of success. The starting point should be the best (colour of) “change” kit in terms of saleability (putting Cardiff to one side for the sake of brevity) and then from that the designers should work backwards until they find a season wardrobe that covers all bases – obviously the step that Warrior and Under Armour missed out.

    Yes, interchangeable shorts and socks being deployed would probably help, but if this goes against what will sell best (a big “if”) then it shouldn’t be so difficult to get three entirely independent kits that work well enough to avoid a home side, like Hearts, having to change to accommodate. If we take the Liverpool Third, it already has white sleeves and white socks so if the body was in fact white with a nightshade sash, perhaps bordered in orange, then it would have done the trick – surely even Warrior could have come up with some white change shorts.

    The answer is to threaten clubs with fines if their lack of an acceptable kit forces a home side to change. Obviously in Europe the kits have to be declared beforehand but, and I’m sorry to harp on, against Hearts the yellow, orange or green (!) goalkeeper kits would have been fine. No they don’t have the look of outfield versions but if Liverpool were made to wear one of them then they wouldn’t have made the error in the first place.

  22. Hold on, Denis, did you not say that you considered Liverpool-Ajax to be a clash? I was a little bit surprised by that because I’m not sure I do, but the example you give above contradicts that somewhat.

    But putting that to one side, I agree with the principles of the “overall clash” avoidance method. If two teams have similar colours then you’re much better to minimise the secondary colours on both kits (maximising the other) as much a possible rather than worrying about the shorts being the same colour.

  23. …Hence why I think West Brom should wear navy change shorts and socks at home to Spurs (in their full Home kit). Not ideal, not right and proper but neither causing West Brom ti be unrecognisible and, dare I say it, most people wouldn’t even notice they weren’t in the first choice kit.

  24. I think Ajax’s stripe is too wide for it not to be an issue – it’s wide enough to accommodate a double-digit number so you would have confusion in my view.

    I’m at work now, but I’ll do some artwork tonight to (try to) prove my point – or at least entrench my own views some more!

  25. First of all, I’m amazed that you consider that a clash based on the jerseys yet have no problems with Spurs wearing navy/white/white at Newcastle.

    In addition, not viewing that Newcastle-Spurs game as causing any issues but requiring a shorts change if Everton played Nottingham Forest (for example) also seems inconsistent.

    Viewing kits as three distinct parts is like those ‘paper clashes’ that Mark described. For me, as the shirts and shorts touch each other, they cannot be seen as separate parts.

    This http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/1820/1993a.jpg is an approximation of the strips in that All-Ireland final (socks omitted as most players wear them down), whereas this http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1038/1993b.jpg is white the shorts colours switched. Sleeve colours do not matter as much in Gaelic football as players are allowed to handle the ball.

    I’d be interested to know what Andrew Rockall thinks of the whole thing, as a referee.

  26. A couple of inconsistencies I’ve noted – these are all from the POV of the officials it seems:

    1. Red and white stripes don’t clash with white shirts but do with red shirts, even when there’s more white on the shirts (plain white backs excepted). My team Exeter had white away shirts from 2010-12 and normally wore this against red teams, but wore their home red and white stripes against white teams, even though the 11-12 edition was predominantly white. There was one exception – I think it was Tranmere – which I assume was ordered by the ref as it was worn against Preston and Franchise. The team seem to have viewed away kits as unlucky until this season, as previously they always wore the home kit wherever possible, whereas the new blue away kit was worn at all yellow Oxford due to its 100% record.

    The daft thing is that white stands out more than any other colour on the football pitch (Middlesbrough’s hoop was originally added for this reason). It makes even less sense when the same rule is applied to blue and white stripes against blue or white teams, as blue stands out less against the pitch.

    2. FIFA’s World Cup rules are that whichever team is at home gets to wear their home kit, or at least the shirt – they may be required to change shorts to provide a full contrast. I can’t work out whether away teams have to change or simply choose to. However a daft case in the World Cup was this:
    2nd round – Uruguay v South Korea – Korea wear their white-blue-white away kit rather than red-white-red home.
    QF: – Uruguay v Ghana – Ghana wear their red and yellow-red-red away rather than their all white home.

    I think FIFA are more obsessed with contrast than light v light or dark v dark given the number of games at the WC which contravened that but still had a clear contrast e.g. Ghana v Oz, South Korea v Greece, even though a light-dark contrast could have been made.

  27. With the England v Argentina thing that you mentioned, I can’t really see how England could wear all white or even with navy blue socks against Argentina’s light blue and white hoops and white shorts and socks, so a change strip has to be worn. I do take your point though in recent games at Twickenham against Australia and Wales when change kits were worn.

  28. It disappoints me Jay that you see shirts as only cash generators, from replica sales and chest adverts. A shirt is the principal identfying mark of a club, its visual identity, and the most emotional bond between club and fans. You seem to reduce it to nothing more than pounds and pence value.

  29. @James.

    I disagree on the red and white stripes versus red thing. I think it’s much clearer to see a team wear white, against red and white stripes – than red. Obviously, with the exception of plain white backs.

    White isn’t a colour and the red shows up against it clearly. I have never really saw this as a problem. I think red versus red and white stripes is unacceptable.

    I can see why referees see it this way.

  30. Les, I might be exaggerating a little. I do think that certain colours should probably be avoided for most teams (that worn by a rival etc) but should the best selling shirt not usually be the most fitting? If a shirt sells well then it means it is popular with the fans, generally speaking. If a shirt is popular with the majority then who are you and I to say that it’s in the wrong colour?

    You know I’m against sponsors which use a logo that looks out of place or conduct themselves in a way which goes against the values of the club, but I have no problem with my club(s) doing the best they can to bring in funds to pay for signings and wages. In fact, if they didn’t then I’d have a problem with that.

    It has to involve compromise. But besides, the thing that bugs me is when a small group with a loud voice says that shirts should or shouldn’t be a particular colour whilst everyone else goes out and buys what is supposedly the wrong coloured shirt. It’s all well and good saying Liverpool should wear yellow away kits because of the Double or whatever – and undoubtedly noble trying to educate younger fans on what makes an acceptable shirt – but if something’s forced into production and then remains on racks in the club shop that’s revenue lost.

    You can take a fan to the Waterside Shopping Centre (Lincoln, apparently) but you can’t make him buy the replica shirt.

  31. The shorts make a huge difference in the Manchester United game. As for the Arsenal Benfica game, a night I remember well and had big expectations, unfortunately an excellent Benfica team had other ideas! Also people will notice it was in an era when the home team changed (you’ll also see a brief clip from the game in Lisbon) unfortunately it was the time that we had THAT away kit!!

  32. Also worn against Austria Vienna, that was the first year of the home team changing as far as I can remember!

    Was gutted that night, and then Isaias turned out to be crap when he went to Benfica. I wonder how different the history of English football would have been if Arsenal had reached the league section

  33. You are right, Denis. Athletico’s blue shorts do help identify both teams. Even though it is still a clash, in my opinion.

    Although, I don’t think this really fits in with your overall clash propaganda 😛

    I mean, obviously a team wearing blue shorts when there is no other part of each teams kit in blue is going to help.

  34. ..or ‘Austria Memphis’ as the boards around Highbury listed them (something to do with some sponsorship they had at the time, I believe). I’m afraid it’s one of those “if only” moments that’ll we’ll never know if they’d have made the group stage. They wore maroon that night and we obviously changed from red, Cork and Galway please take note….

  35. Denis was the Newcastle v Tottenham game a ‘Paper Clash’ or a real clash? Cos watching the game I saw no issue but before hand thought it may be a problem.

    United have worn red at West Ham and Aston Villa in the past which everyone will agree usually requires a change. In reality it didn’t cause a problem.

  36. Spot on, Andrew – re: Newcastle v Tottenham.

    I too thought it would be a problem beforehand, when in reality I thought it was fine.

  37. There are two reasons.

    Firstly, the white backs on Newcastle shirts. I think we can both agree that there is a lot more white on the shirt than black. Athletico’s is a standard red and white stripes.

    Secondly, and you’ll probably think this is baloney, but red stands out as the predominant colour. I would have been fine with Man United wearing white. But red is much more noticeable, which is why 99 times out 100, you see white versus red and white stripes, but not red versus red and white stripes.

    The Newcastle v Tottenham was navy blue versus white and black. The white stands out more, as it against navy blue. And there is much more white on the Newcastle shirt than black.

    I think Andrew has nailed it, to be honest. There are paper clashes, and real clashes. I thought Newcastle v Tottenham was going to be a clash until I saw the match. Although, at that time I hadn’t seen the new Newcastle kit, and didn’t know about the large amount of white on the shirt.

  38. Spurs have caused a sleeve clash at The Library and The Effiminates every year. I don’t recall a single occasion they have ever changed v Arsenal.

  39. Great article and raises some very good points. The Hearts v Liverpool game in Edinburgh highlighten how pointless Liverpool’s change and 3rd kit are this season. I wondered what Liverpool would wear this weekend away to Sunderland and have to say the red socks with black shirt and shorts worked quite well.

  40. On the subject of Barcelona’s kit and clashes with red, I notice in tonight’s Champions League that their opponents Spartak Moscow have turned up at the Nou Camp in their red “Middlesbrough style” kit.

    I think given the shade and quantity of “grenadine red” on Barça’s shirts, it’s more than passable, though you have to question how come Spartak didn’t turn up in their white away strip.

  41. Maybe they didn’t want to annoy Barcelona by wearing the same colours as Real Madrid!

    Just flicked over to the match, and yeah, it is fine.

  42. Just noticed that Victor Valdes is once again wearing the green third goalkeeper kit.

    You know, I think they may have realised that the blue home goalkeeper kit actually clashes with outfield kit!

  43. Leagues just need to have set styles of kit as in the nba when they have one coloured kit one white kit and one alternate kit.

    Or just have a bunch of people that organise kits for each fixture at a similar time to the announce of the fixture list.

  44. I’m really surprised by how many people on this site seem to want standard designs/colours. Usually anything homogenised, even like league standard numbering and lettering is lampooned!

  45. the kits don’t necessarily have to be a specific sort of design, the teams and the leagues just need to be organised in a way that the league makes sure a team has a good enough difference on a second or third kit that they will never clash wit the home team.

    I’m not sure in the championship they do that considering Blackburn’s Regular home kit along with a dark blue away kit and a white third kit with blue pinstripes.

    Teams should just reverse colours for an away kit and have an extra third kit if they want.

  46. i have always had a problem with this (as i play FIFA and PES a lot its a bane of my life) ..so heres a funny story,

    i was playing FIFA 2002, i was playing a season as manchester united and found myself up against sunderland at away

    at the time i didnt have much of a system …..i just changed the kit if the colours were the same in any way shape or form …..even if the colour clash is just on the arms (the arms make up most of the kit) , so at this point it was a no brainer ….red + white vs red = a change

    unfortunatly i knew my away was white and in my eyes that clashed too, i had to find a solution ….i turned to the shorts first but decided that uniteds black away shorts would add to the confusion by clashing with sunderlands black pair,

    i found sunderland had a sky blue away kit, and thus opted for that ..but being a stickler i didnt want to have united play in home at away whilst the home team wore their away …it went against convention in my eyes ..so i opted for the white

    unfortunatly it was only when i got to the pitch i discovered how wrong i was,

    sunderlands shorts where white …and the shirts white trim had bleached the sky blue to almost white at the distance the camera was sitting at, ..i only had the united shorts to help me ..but even then it was difficult to judge once the game started moving and at the speed my reactions were at was considerably slower than usual

    if FIFA had simply given the option of uniteds blue third kit from that season it woulda been problem solved ..but the point to my story is if i had been able to see what colour shorts each team used i would have been able to make a better judgement,

    kits should be judged as an overall whole, not just as a shirt

    now i have a system that dosnt fail, and now (i play PES and can change the shorts and socks) i do not have these problems,

    now if a team i play against uses the same colours as me in any way shape or form i change their kit …..even if their shorts and socks are the same colour as mine ..i change their shorts and socks where possible,

    and whilst i still treat differant colour shades as the same as the regular colour …….ie sky blue is blue and maroon and claret are red ……. i also try to remember that sky blue and white dont match,

    the system never fails regardless of the design

  47. I thought the Real Madrid green kit was the new away kit, and maybe the red one from last season was retained as a third kit.

    But no, I just noticed the green kit is the third, and they have a new navy blue with fluorescent yellow trim as the away.

    When was the last time Madrid didn’t release three new kits at the start of the season?!

  48. This isn’t a pointless third kits as they are not unlikely to face a team in white or blue/black so they do need another colour although red would be sufficient and it’s quite a nice kit too.
    But it is still all about the money from the fans.

  49. Oh yeah, I don’t imagine there will really be a problem with the colour of the kits. I was more making a general point about teams releasing three new kits each and every season.

    Which I realise is hardly breaking news, and has been discussed on this site many times before.

  50. Surely if the team is actually wearing the kit then there is a need to release a new one but haven’t qpr released a new third kit that they definitely don’t need.

  51. As a long time fan of the German Bundesliga, I was delighted to see that ITV4 have started screening a highlights show on Mondays at 10pm. My point is this: They don’t seem to have any of the above problems in Germany. One example: VfB Stuttgart (known for their all white home kit) were away against Werder Bremen (who play this season in green/white/green) – despite VfB’s almost rigid adherance to all white, they had red away shorts with the regular home shirts and shorts, meaning NO CLASH. On the subject of Stuttgart, their home is all white, away is all red, and third is all black. Mixing and matching means that all potential colour clashes are avoided. Generally in the Bundesliga, odd clashes of shorts or socks etc don’t occur/ don’t cause a problem. My point on these pages is that Puma/adidas/Nike all supply teams in the Bundesliga, yet kit choices are much more logical, meaning (surely) that the clubs in England are responsible? Does anyone see the logic in that?

  52. I see the logic in that and Tottenham could probably mix and match without too much trouble. But as a hull fan I was excited too see that hulls away lot is the opposite to the home kit meaning all elements of the kit could be alternated whilst keeping the identity of the club.

  53. I knew that one would get you, Denis! We seem to have skimmed over whether Uefa/Fifa actually allow teams to take two pairs of shorts in the same colour to a tournament (anymore). I don’t think they do.

  54. Martyn, I think your conclusion is almost right but you’re coming at it from the wrong angle. Please forgive the racial stereotype but it’s more likely that the German clubs (and federation?) are efficiently ensuring that the kits they are given are fit for their (secondary) purpose.

  55. I think the reason for hull having two pairs of each colour is because they are both first choice shorts for each kit but they could have had just the one change pair, but this isn’t because of money as neither of the the amber shorts are actually on sale on the website.

  56. I know that George, but I think that they should have the same black pair for home and away, and the same orange pair for clashes.

    It’s not even as if the designs are markedly different, as when Aston Villa had two sets of white shorts in 1997-98, these are stock adidas designs!

  57. I don’t have any real problem with that, once there are alternatives.

    Likewise, as said in the article, I’ve no problem if a team’s home and away kits clash, as they never play themselves. Once they sort clashes with the opposition there shouldn’t be an issue.

  58. Jay (95),
    Efficiency probably comes into it, but I just think that German clubs treat their fans with more respect. I’m not saying they’re all perfect – Werder Bremen have changed their home and aways every year since Nike started supplying them (though they do retain the previous seasons away as a third from time to time), and Borussia Dortmund celebrated a link up with Puma by unveiling FOUR kits (!), but the old two season kit cycle that clubs used to (mostly) respect in England exists in Germany – Schalke, Bayern Munchen, Nurnberg, and Leverkusen all have a kit in their roster that was first used in 2011/12.

  59. Glad to hear it Denis! I think it would be nice for the likes of Chelsea, Man city et al to follow that example rather than bringing out three new kits every year!

  60. I was really surprised when I heard the new Arsenal home kit was going to last for two seasons. I thought everybody had given up on that.

  61. one of the main kit problems is caused by the premier league relaxing the short’s clash rule. hence Arsenal rarely having their traditional yellow/blue away kit these day’s. Arsenal alway’s used to put this kit on when they were away to team’s that play with blue shirt’s, white short’s. if the PL went back to the original kit rule that all the kit shouldn’t clash that would solve a lot of the kit problem’s.

  62. Napoli and Lazio is on ESPN tonight.Its surprising that Lazio have a blue band across the chest when it is the primary home colour.Surely it should be excluded from the away kit.

  63. I disagree Scott – what if a team with blue/white/blue away to a team with red/white/red and the blue team’s away is red/white/red?

    You can’t really commit a foul with any part of the body covered by the shorts, so differentiating isn’t that much of an issue for refs

  64. Yeah, shorts are often the key and have a vital part to play in avoiding the overall clash. However, that can even mean matching the shorts to the opposition’s to alleviate the “OC”. Trying to avoid shorts being in the same colours can be hugely counterproductive.

  65. Anyone see Rooney’s strapping last night? Grey wasn’t a major problem but with the rules on casts and sock tape being so strict now you wonder whether it should have been allowed. I do suspect that if it hadn’t been such a high profile (United) player the officials may have taken a harder line.

  66. Enjoyable article, a good read. Thanks for putting it our way Eric. Wouldn’t know anything about articles in other newspapers though, I’d rather read my own death sentence than read the Daily Mail…..

  67. Novara will host Peterborough in round 1 of my cup. Novara play in blue shirts and black shorts, so which away kit is more appropriate for P’boro? Red and black hoops with black shorts, or given the dark colour of Novara’s shorts, all white? PS, why did Leeds wear their away kit at red cardiff in the league when there was no clash?

  68. Thanks for that Eric. Interesting that it backs up a lot of my own opinions – adidas do tend to leave the OTT adornment alone these days – even when they add extra bits (the orange dots on this years Bayern third, the sky blue ‘net’ on last seasons Chelsea third, the yellow ‘muscles’ on this years Chelsea third) they are done tastefully, and not too intrusively. The problem is that Nike, Umbro and the rest think ‘yeah, that’ll work’ and just issue the kits quickly, then probably think ‘whoops’ when they come out! or maybe they should just say ‘NEW MANCHESTER UNITED KIT – IT’S GINGHAM!’ or ‘NEW ARSENAL KIT – IT’S GOT A WHOLE MOD THING GOING ON ON THE SLEEVES’ instead of coming out with that PR gumph that IMO makes things worse. Lets be honest, younger Arsenal fans probably don’t realise the significance of the ‘WM’ on the back of the shirts, so can we just go back to simplicity please? Don’t over think it, just design a kit with traditional colours, in a clean, uncluttered style…No? Anyone?

  69. I’m probably wrong but I think the main reason why Adidas don’t have too many wacky designs is the three stripes are there already, if that makes any sense.

  70. Agreed, Eric. And that’s immediately classy, retro/timeless so they’re a step ahead before they’ve even done any work. Apparently the new adidas Hearts kits have outsold the previous Umbro designs many times over. That’s just down to the cachet of the brand because they’ve really just given them teamwear, whereas the Umbro designs tended to be well thought out and original.

  71. When I started watching football, my three teams – Arsenal, Cork City and the Republic of Ireland – all had adidas (none of them have since 1999 now) so that’s probably why it’s my favourite brand.

  72. Yeah, Adidas are my favourite too.

    It used to be Nike, up until three years ago, when they seemingly started to lose their mind. I can’t quite like Umbro. I know that I probably should, but I don’t know, it’s like they are trying too hard, or something.

    I’ve always had a soft spot for Kappa, it has to be said. I love how their kits haven’t really changed in the past 10 years, and are instantly recognisable.

  73. I remember when Arsenal changed to Adidas (around 1986 if I recall correctly) and even before I saw the kit I just KNEW what it would be like and it didn’t let us Gooners down. Hopefully the ‘Arsenal return to Adidas’ rumours are true. Denis, did you ever see the Cork GAA strip made by Adidas that caused a huge row back home around the late seventies?? (it may have been O’Neills that started that particular argument…..)

  74. Eric (121),
    I totally agree with you on all points. Firstly, round about 98 up to about 2006 Nike did some GREAT designs, then just went off the rails totally…Umbro had their ‘classic era’ in the 90’s (apart from the grey obsession for England and Man Utd), whereas adidas have been consistently strong since 2002 (the 90’s, with the adidas equipment era, not so great IMO), but I’ve always liked Kappa too. Between 2004 and the end of the contract a few years ago they did some great designs (home, away, and third) for Werder Bremen, and their Italy strips were always nice too, as well as the mid/late 90’s Juventus kits (the home one that used thick black stripes that were arched on the back and sleeves and the mid blue away with yellow stars on the shoulders spring to mind).

  75. Does any remember a mid seventies game, at Loftus Road, where Derby County were forced to change in to QPR’s away strip of red shirt and white shorts? I can’t remember whether it a colour or Derby brought the wrong away kit.

  76. Jeff are you 100 sure it wasnt an away kit of Derby’s? They seemd to wear all sorts of eleberate away colours including a Pompey like Blue White Red combo.

  77. I seem to remember Derby wearing someone’s away strip in the ’70’s but I don’t think it was at QPR. They had the brilliant red and white halved shirts at that time. The all-red shirt didn’t appear until about ’81 if memory serves me correct.

  78. Jeff, I don’t know if this is the answer to your question but I remember reading an article John posted on this site about Derby wearing a red kit at Millwall, after they forgot the home side wore a white kit back then, rather than their more familiar blue. I can’t find the article on here however (the search feature doesn’t seem to work for me!).

  79. Having just finished a complete review of Derby’s kits in the 70s this is of particular interest to me! Jeff, you’re right, Derby simply borrowed QPR’s away shirt for that game and Jon, you’re right they pulled a similar trick when playing Millwall. If memory serves it was particularly ironic as Derby had just won the championship and the Millwall players formed a guard of honour as they ran out onto the pitch wearing Millwall shirts!!

    I do have a feeling they did something similar against another side as well at about that time.

    For the record Derby’s regular away kits in the 70s included yellow/blue, all blue, blue/white/red, red/white, pale blue/white stripes, pale blue/dark blue stripes.

  80. Here is another Derby County oddity, this time from 1972/73, when the majority of people still had black and white televisions. During this period I do know Manchester United would help broadcasters our by changing from their normal away kit of blue shirts and white shorts to a plain all white strip. So I can’t think of any reason why Derby would need to change their home strip to all blue against Leeds United side wearing all red. For anyone with a black and white set both teams would look the same.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeP_ylL9Xrs&feature=g-upl

  81. John that makes perfect sense. Other than another of Don Revie’s many superstitions I can’t see any reason why Leeds United would need return to an all red kit last worn in 1970.

  82. Newcastle to wear lime green when they visit Sunderland tomorrow… apparently the black and white kit clashes with Sunderland’s red and white. Baffling.

  83. Spurs v Liverpool “Red Devils” play in Black
    Swansea v Norwich “Canaries play in Black
    Man Utd v Newcastle “Magpies” play in Yellow
    Norwich v Chelsea “Blues” play in white
    Reading v Swansea Swansea play in red
    Sunderland v Spurs “Lilywhites” play in dark blue
    QPR v Liverpool “Red Devils” play in Black
    WBA v Fulham Fulham play in yellow
    Southampton v Arsenal
    Clash of reds so Arsenal play in dark blue but Southampton goalie plays in BLACK

    Where has the pride gone?

  84. You can’t really argue with Fulham wearing their away kit at West Brom, Tottenham wearing navy blue at Sunderland, and Swansea wearing red at Reading, since they were clashes.

    I suppose you could argue that Tottenham could have used their home kit, but there is white on the Sunderland and I think it’s better for teams to change in that situation.

    But I get your point.

  85. Forest v Oldham in FA cup today – Oldham wearing all Navy and Forest keeper wearing all dark purple. Impossible to tell the difference

  86. Barnsley forced to wear Crystal Palace’s away kit yesterday because of a “clash”

    Palace of course wearing the red and blue home kit. Barnsley turned up with their red home kit and the blue and black away shirt. However Barnsley were forced to wear Palace’s away kit of yellow and blue stripes.

    Only a small clash and with the yellow trim on Palace’s kit I found it rather confusing

  87. That wouldn’t be the first time that has happened to Barnsley.

    I went to a Swindon Town home game back in 1990 and the Tykes had to wear the Swindon yellow 3rd strip as the ref deemed that the Barnsley away kit of white shirts & red shorts clashed with the red of Swindon!
    It was odd watching Swindon home vs Swindon away.

  88. Well a couple of years ago we had the odd situation of tranmere rovers playing in colchesters gold third kit because the ref decided that neither tranmeres white home or sky blue away contrasted enough with colchesters blue and white striped,

    millwall donning my team sheffield wednesdays away kit from the year previous (the yellow and blue westfield health one) for the same reasons …then trotting out in their orange third at half time (begging the question if they brought it then why did they need to borrow ours …..they didnt drive it up from milwall in 45 minutes thats for sure)

    And mansfield having to borrow bristol rovers away shirts from the previous season (the black one with CR Windows sponsoring) due to “unforseen circumstsnces” (chalk that one up to the kit man forgetting the shirts then)

    I cannot help but feel that this would be avoided if the F.A stopped running on tradition and implimented a similar system to the NFL

    NFL teams must submit a uniform schedual to the NFL before the season starts thus ensuring everyone knows what the opposition is wearing well in hand and can properly plan for any changes should they arise

    Now yes this would take a certain spontinaity out of the game …..and yes i am a fan of this aspect of football as much as the next man, but stupid clashes can admittedly be a “ball ache” to coin a popular phrase we use round these parts

    Love to know what anyone else thinks

  89. That is already in place in the Premier League, the handbook is available online, I’m sure every kit man in the League has a copy too. (I suspect the FL have the same rule in place, I just cannot confirm that)

  90. #155… tis true, All kits must be submitted to the FL who compare and tell the clubs in which games they will need a 3rd kit. This is done in plenty of time usually. (Although you can’t make allowances for a picky referee over ruling them on the day!)

  91. If that was the case, the FL would have told Bristol Rovers not to turn up at Rochdale with purple and black striped shirts the season the home side wore blue and black stripes.

    I honestly don’t think the Premier League/FL care after clubs submit their kits. If they did they’d have told Man City having sky/navy/purple as their three kit options was unacceptable.

  92. I dont think its the case they dont care, i think its the case they do not ENFORCE like the NFL does, i believe the NFL has the power to fine clubs if they rock up in something other than what they have stated they will wear

    The FA/FL definitly has no power over what colours a team decides its wearing at the begining of a season thats down to the clubs/manufacturers to decide and thats how it should be, i fear anything more could constitute a breech of freedom of expression or something like that and would open up a can of worms

    But they do have the power to control picky refs and to enforce matchday rules on kits if it arises, may be it should start their

  93. Matt I would have no problem refereeing Man City in Sky Blue v their reserves in Navy. Afterwards the youth team can wear the Purple kit and challenge either/both, as there is no clash.

    FIFA would probably even be OK with this. Light, Dark & Medium.

  94. Purple v Navy is a clash. It might look fine close up, but try watching a game from a distance. Dale did this when they had a purple away kit and played teams in blue. It was horrible.

    Sky blue v royal blue is wrong.

  95. This is one of my biggest irritants in modern football. It makes absolutely no sense to me – there are a huge amount of colours available, so WHY do kit suppliers use colours from the same spectrum? sky blue teams should NOT have royal blue, navy blue, or purple away kits. What is wrong with giving Man City a red and black away, with a white third? Historically, its covered EVERY SINGLE clash without any problems. Similarly for royal blue teams. Purple IS NOT a viable away colour. EVER. I’ve said it before on these pages, you never see a red team wearing a claret or orange away shirt, and its the same principle. Why are shades of blue / purple considered an exception?

  96. i would assume man city dont wear red or avoid it for the same reason sheffield wednesday dont

    i know city has worn red and black stripes in the past (that 1995 umbro kit they shared a template with notts forest and chelsea sprigs to mind)

    but with red and black being uniteds colours i would assume they would rather avoid using them where possible

  97. Can’t believe that as red & black stripes are traditional City away colours. I’ve seen fans with hats and scarves of that colour too. If it was ever an issue, they’d never have used them time and again over the years.

  98. Exactly. It’s one of the rare occasions of a club embracing the colours of their rivals – worn famously in the ’69 cup final, throughout the 80’s, and time and again since. Maybe it’s Nike getting paranoid about brand identity while they supplied Utd – now that deal has ended, what’s the problem? My whole point is that a clubs kits HAVE to have differentiation, and this ‘lifestyle’ kit rubbish has to end. If Nike don’t want red and black for City, why not solid black and a white third? that would make sense, wouldn’t it?

  99. Outside of the Premier League, the issue with completely superfluous change kits is very much evident……. for instance Bordeaux in the French League have brought out yet another third kit which is primarily navy, despite their home kit being navy. For the fifth season running!!!

  100. makes sense to me for city to use a black or white away shirt but whilst i know red and black are traditional city colours i still feel that whoever has made their recent kits has not even considered this because of the united connection to those colours

    it probly is a brand identity thing, but everybody has a differing idea of what clashes

    for example my personal experiences with FIFA (see one of my previous posts on this article for the details) teach me white is a clash with a particular shade of sky blue when that sky blue is paired with light or white shorts like city kits traditionally are

    and that this particular combination does not actually clash much with blue, royal blue, indigo or any other dark shade of blue so long as it is a light enough sky blue, in these cases a purple away kit might not be so stupid if the only colour you will wear it against are teams in white

    obviously as i state in my FIFA post its not something i would risk personally but it kind of makes sense

    hue and tone are as much considerations in what colours clash as much as actual colour is, and blue resides on the cool side of the spectrum, thus their is a much more noticeable variation between its different hues than their is with warm colours like red, orange and yellow witch blend together easier in my experience

    in my experiences as an artist colours like green and purple have much more in common with yellow and red respectively than they do with blue, blue overpowers the colours easyer so for example greens that reside on the blue end of the spectrum tend to look more blue than green but greens on the yellow end look like a brighter green if you catch my meaning, in the same way purple has more in common with red tone wise

    but again …this is my personal experience

  101. I understand where you’re coming from when dealing with the issue of colour in its purest form – however, when those colours are printed onto polyester, often with shadow patterns, metallic tints etc, then the issue becomes more complicated. For example, as I have pointed out before, Augsburg wearing all green last season and the season before against teams in all red doesn’t sound like a clash, but put them together and it is genuinely difficult to tell them apart. I do yearn for the 90’s, when apart from a few cases, clubs seemed to be much more sensible with kit choices. Sadly I think its something we’re stuck with.

  102. while i agree the 90s were better, if you genuine cannot tell red and green apart then their is a deeper issue and that’s colour blindness LMAO (sorry im not saying you are ….but it is a trait of colour blindness lol)

    seriously though they ARE at opposite ends of the spectrum so the chances of them clashing are remote, i will however admit the problem is compounded with shadow patterns and the like but without witnessing this phenomenon for myself i cannot really comment, …they do however look aweful on the same shirt, …yeah im looking at you maritimo …and many brazil sides

    but yes i do agree shadowing and metalics can confuse and i will admit i am mistaken at times by these fashions myself

    for example was once convinced England’s 1996 away kit was a shade of light blue not grey for some reason (probably looked blue to me in a few photos) but that was when i was younger, and even though it was officially called indigo blue by umbro …..it clearly wasnt

    this is the same lad that thought sheffield wednesday had a silver away shirt in 2003 when it was apperently gold, (wasnt alone either ..FIFA 2003 thought the same) or thought derby countys 1998 away kit was purple and not dark blue,

  103. With all due respect, the Augsburg situation I referred to wasn’t colour blindness, it was a particular shade of green (bottle) that when on the same pitch as a team playing in all red created problems – although they shouldn’t clash, the effect of two teams playing in similar SHADES created a partial clash. This is part of the problem I’ve been referring to – although kit designers may sit in a design studio and think ‘yeah, that’s fine, it doesn’t clash, its different colours’, when they’re on the pitch the problems begin.

  104. well i did quick internet search and found Augsberg vs Bayern all green vs all red …………… saw no visible clash (not even a partial one) myself so im not seeing the problem and i watched 4 different matches to make sure

    i can understand where your coming from about shades (its been the gist of what i have said) but only when the colours are similar

    green and red shouldn’t clash unless you have a particular form of eye problem ………or a floodlight problem ……thats not the fault of a designer given that red and green are two separate colours that should be opposites of each other

  105. Should be opposites but aren’t. You’re missing my point – the point is that Augsburg used a bottle green strip when all white was available and wouldn’t have clashed AT ALL with all red. Similarly, I don’t think that all black is always suitable against all royal blue – different colours, similar shades. The issue is that two teams playing against each other should have CLEAR differentation. I’ve personally never understood why in some instances yellow is considered a clash against white. I am NOT colour blind, merely pointing out a potential, if unusual, issue.

  106. actually no i am not missing your point at all, you have made the same point as me the only difference is we don’t agree on the red vs green situation, im not mocking you by calling you colour blind it was a bit of fun based on the red vs green differential but i am seriously wondering now, and i will give you my reasons

    firstly your still telling me a bottled green strip clashed with a red strip when i have watched those matches in question myself (and a few others) and I SEE no clashes AT ALL,

    repeating it wont make it a good example when simply put I PERSONALLY DID NOT SEE the problem in the matches i watched, they might have had a white strip but given their was no clash i don’t see the issue even the shades of red and green do not make a difference since they do not clash in those games at all a change wasnt really needed, it might make more sense to you but i didnt feel it was needed

    the only time this would be an issue would be if the green was paired with red stripes in some way – not only would the reds clash but their is a chance of the shirt looking brown, bayern or any other team would need to have a down right claret/burgundy red kit before i would even consider green on its own as a clash and even then its a stretch

    but looking at those Augsberg matches i see no issue, and so i dont quite know where you are looking

    if you are seeing one than its either your eyes or the lighting making you think their is one, i am not going to disrespect you by guessing witch it is, …..im not all that interested to tell the truth ….but i can definitely say without conviction, that i see NO clash, and it is what i would expect

    now white clashes with yellow on a contrast basis, it depends on the colour its paired with and the lighting on the day, its a similar situation to the black vs royal blue situation you mention and is subject to a lot of differential factors …including tone of the yellow (a more gold colour might be dark enough not to clash for example)

  107. I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. Needless to say, it was a shade, not a colour clash. I could tell the two teams apart, of course, but as I have said, Augsburg were at home. Their home colours are all white, yet they switched to bottle green just because the white featured red side bars. The white would have worked better. Similarly, Hannover had a black third shirt when the home was a very dark shade of red, paired with black shorts. In Rugby Union, Leicester Tigers play in a combination of red and green. If the two colours are not separated by white trim, as last season, the red pinstripe is swamped by the green, meaning its visibility is almost zero. More examples? How about the Aston Villa mid 90’s away shirt – black and green stripes trimmed with red. The red either clashed horribly or vanished, depending on the circumstances. In certain instances over the years, red and blue, those two traditional opposites, HAVE clashed. See? Different colours, similar SHADES. SHADE, SHADE, SHADE. NOT colour.

  108. well not really, your lauding red and green as being the same colour depending on the shade, when it isn’t

    repeating yourself isn’t making your point any better either, given that i already understand where you are getting at,

    you can say SHADE 3 times all you want but at the end of the day this isn’t a case of me not getting what you are saying its a case of you just being wrong

    you see the only time the shade matters in a red vs green situation is when both colours are almost white or almost black, but neither team had this problem, ……..i actually agree with Augsberg, their away contained red, so they should avoid a clash altogether by changing if they had the option, and they did,

    but if you could tell them apart AT ALL their was NO CLASH, just because you think a shirt is a better idea dosnt mean their was a clash nor does it mean their is a shade clash …..it means you have an eye problem

    you see the problem here is only one of those examples you have provided is ANY indication of how shade matters, and thats the red vs black situation

    but its a STRETCH, the red would have to be practically black and regular red would only clash when paired with the black shorts, it would look lighter when paired with red or white shorts,

    but that is the only time shade matters at all, when a colour is put against white or black since white and black are SHADES not COLOURS ……red, green and blue are all colours,

    but none of your other examples are examples

    if the red is swamped by the other two colours on the SAME SHIRT then the shirt is green and it is hardly an example of how two different shirts will clash with each other

    the idea of another colour swamping the red till its almost invisible has nothing to do with the shade, its because their is more of the other colour on the shirt

    also the only time red and blue clash is if the other colour is more of a purple or if the other team has a red and blue stripe, but again this is a COLOUR issue not a shade issue

    its not rocket science man, …….seriously, get an eye test, your worrying me now

  109. I don’t enter into these discussions to be insulted or insult. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I shall not be expressing mine with you any more – I’d rather join a constructive discussion about issues that come up in this weird and wonderful world of football kits, not say ‘I’m right’ or ‘you’re wrong’. That’s not what discussing is.

  110. I think it’s best to just agree to disagree lads, neither of you is going to convince the other, but no need to let it get out of hand. We can discuss kits while staying civil too!

  111. i didn’t come here to insult you either martin, im just telling you your trying to convince me of something that i can see with my own eyes is the opposite, its not about who is right and who is wrong, im just telling you its insane to do it given their are any number of factors that effect personal experience, ….anything from the kind of light entering the eyes to the pattern of the blood vessels in the retina

    i also never said you were not entitled to an opinion, i only gave you reasons why MY opinion was valid, and that IS how a discussion works

    i just want you to know however, …..i don’t think your an idiot just because your opinion is different to mine (sorry if it seems that way and sorry if i was a little blunt earlier), in fact i have agreed with some things you have said just not others

    but this is what makes it an interesting discussion, so many factors in a clash its not like we can just narrow it down using simple factors, may be its a more complicated subject than we think

  112. I know, Tony – it’s strange how kits can get us all het-up! I used to regularly have running battles with EricGeneric and he doesn’t post here anymore, I hope the two aren’t related :/

  113. Thats OK Tony (sorry, I only just saw your post). You’re right – kits are one thing that invites colourful debate, and sometimes it gets a little heated!
    My main problem these days is that there seems to be a lack of clear solutions by kit suppliers to solve clashes. My pet hate is suppliers using a different shade of the same colour ie navy away and royal blue home. What happened to opposites?

  114. Sorry to labour a point Martin but Navy Blue and Sky Blue, despite both having Blue in their names, are about as opposite as you can get. I’d put Royal Blue somewhere in between and confidently say it clashed with neither.

  115. Portsmouth – first season in the PL – see John’s comments in the original TC book. And would you seriously tell me that Chelsea vs Man City, both in home kits, is acceptable? given the level of white trim prevalent in both cases I don’t think its right at all – I accept it not a glaring clash but its still a clash. My point is that change kits exist to avoid any clash – so I expect to see Chelsea in black at the Etihad and City in the fluorescent third at the Bridge. Of course, they’ll probably show up in the navy away, so what do I know!

  116. Royal blue clashes with navy, in my eyes – not enough contrast.

    Royal v sky has contrast, though obviously it’s not ideal. Clearly, referees have seen enough differentiation to allow Chelsea and City play each other in home kits in recent times and Everton went a good while without changing away to City.

    On all of those occasions, the team in royal had blue shorts too, which aided distinguishing the teams. Man City away to Birmingham in 2011 – http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/carlos-tevez-of-manchester-city-shoots-past-martin-jiranek-news-photo/108748024 – is harder to tell apart on first glance because both are also in white shorts. Birmingham had worn red in Manchester.

    Navy and sky blue don’t clash at all – though interestingly in the Six Nations the home team always change when Scotland play Italy, even though Italy have a fairly light blue.

    Portsmouth 2003-04 are a special case in that the navy was literally an “away kit” – I don’t think the blue was worn away at all. They had a white “change kit”, when playing away to teams in blue.

  117. Thanks Denis – navy doesn’t clash with sky, as you said, but if a sky blue team plays white it can cause problems as well, particularly the very light shade City have favoured since Reebok arrived. Didn’t they play Bolton away in red and black in the first year of the Reebok deal? I seem to remember Anelka and possibly Tarnat scoring?

  118. *Should have said ‘since the Reebok days’ – I know they’ve had Reebok, Le Coq Sportif (returning for one season), Umbro and Nike since then, but the shade is still the almost powder blue that Reebok brought back (a la ’80’s Umbro).

  119. Portsmouth wore their home kit at West Brom pn the final day of the 04/05 season, because their navy away and white third kits clashed. Notable game for West Brom doing their great escape.

    I know in the likes of South America it is not at all uncommon to see teams in sky blue against royal or navy blue.

  120. well when Wednesday played man city at the etihad in the cup last year back we changed to our yellow away …..we nearly beat them too

    just adding white to the blue can create a clash

  121. I could be wrong, but haven’t Wednesday always changed at Man City? Proves that even in this day and age sanity sometimes prevails, just like back in the 90’s! As I’ve said before, when I first started following football in ’94 I didn’t even know what a third kit was, as they were still relatively rare. Now everyone brings them out when they’re needed or not. A case in point – will Arsenal’s new third be REALLY needed? I think the shade of gold used on the away, coupled with the shadow pattern, means the answer is probably no.

  122. It probably won’t Martyn, which is why the third is marketed as a cup away. The first strip I remember being marketed as a third was Aston Villa’s yellow and blue one from 1991-92 (too young to recall Manchester United’s red/white/blue in the 80s or Liverpool red/white/yellow).

    I think Wednesday would always have to change at City, blue and white strips can give the effect of light blue

  123. First time I was aware of a third kit was probably ’95 – it was the West Ham one with an off white body and claret sleeves, made by Pony. Nice strip, but it was in itself pretty superfluous considering the very reason for its use would’ve clashed as well!
    As regards the marketing of ‘cup’ strips, I don’t like it, personally. Bayern call their third strip an ‘International’ (ie Europe) strip, and in the group stages wear it at home, but generally its usually a solution to the old ‘red home / white away’ problem, caused by strips that contain both (such as stripes / halves etc). The Arsenal one just seems a bit pointless considering the away shirt covers most clashes – its purely a money making exercise (Puma have previous in this – why give Dortmund a third strip when the chances of playing a team in yellow are slim / none at all? Only Dresden and Aachen even play in similar colours, both in the third division or lower). Sad but true reflection of modern football.

  124. Like i said ……white and blue can create a clash with sky blue

    So yeah we always change at both manchester and coventry city

    But its funny though cos blue can either work or not work as a change depending on the situation

    In 2003 against coventry we wore our dark blue away (diadora sponsored and supplied) and it caused no problems while they had that all sky blue in house made kit

    but back in 1997 coventry brought their purple and indigo yellow trimmed peugeot sponsored kit …the one that had purple shorts and yellow socks when we had that predominiantly white kit (white arms with two thin stripes either side of a white chest paneled number) ….it was kinda hard to see who was who cos we had blue shorts with it

    So so purple is not necesarilly going to be a solution even if we wear mostly white, its wierd how that works out the same when its the other way round isnt it

  125. And FYI martyn ….the cream coloured west ham kit with the claret arms came with claret shorts …..they only wore it at villa cos it provided better contrast than their all sky blue away did ….villa had white shorts that year and their change pair was sky blue you see so i would assume that was the reason they wore it instead of the away, im not sure how effective it was but since they retained it the following season i would assume it was

    But im surprised you didnt see manchester uniteds blue and white striped affair from the same season

    Its better know for being wheele out at half time during the southampton match the next year (95-96) …..because their grey away clashed with the crowd of all things …..but it was used in 94 -95 as well

  126. If we are talking 3rd and even 4th kits. Go no further than chelsea in 60s and 70s just have a look on the historical football kits site!!!

  127. Do Oxford have a third kit? If not, surely if they wore (what I assume) are change yellow shorts with their normal home shirt it wouldn’t have been a problem? I know yellow v orange is considered a clash, but with Luton using blue as a second colour I would say it just about works – better than red and black stripes though!

    My argument about that West Ham third is that the all sky away would work against Villa, being as the main body is claret, except if Villa had stripes – but the traditional Villa look shouldn’t really clash with all sky IMO.

    That Man Utd blue and white was only wheeled out because they were losing and Ferguson threw a wobbly at half time! But yeah, against Southampton it too wasn’t ideal. I may be biased but Bayern’s solution to have a red home, white away, and black/grey/navy third is perfect – every permutation is covered.

    Of course, Leeds had three kits in the early 70’s too, the mix and match approach that they wore sometimes of blue shirts and yellow shorts could just about be classed as a fourth considering they wore the combination more than once. Do you have a pic of those Chelsea 65-66 kits? I’d like to see them out of interest – that was rare pre 1980’s wasn’t it?

  128. Very interesting, thanks Andy. What was the reason behind their sudden adoption of Inter Milan colours? And looking slightly forwards I see they went decidedly Welsh colour wise in the 70’s. Again, was there a reason for this? I always thought that Chelsea had worn white or red or yellow (at a time when pretty much everyone had yellow aways) – I never realised their away kits pre 1980’s were so varied…

  129. I don’t think clubs thought about identity much back then, traditionally Clubs reversed their first choice colours, in some cases that wasn’t possible. Directors had far more influence back then, maybe some selections where made on a whim.

    Man United changed from Blue to Yellow as a third kit in the early Seventies changing back again within 5 years, there doesn’t seem to be any particular reason.

  130. @Martyn – are you saying that West Ham could wear their away at Villa Park this season? I wouldn’t think so.

    Re Luton-Oxford: if the PL allowed Arsenal to wear yellow at Blackpool in 2010-11, surely Oxford in all-yellow would be allowed, it’s definitely less problematic than red/black v orange/navy.

    I think that blue shirts with yellow shorts and socks was Leeds’ first-choice away after Don Revie changed the home colours to all-white. I don’t think there was any real mixing and matching, maybe Allan ‘Sniffer’ Clarke can come back and tell us for sure?!

  131. Quite a poor clash from Oxford in my opinion, even in spite of the black stripes. I agree the yellow would probably have been a better option but with foresight they should have introduced a third kit for this particular match.

    I think West Ham’s away kit would clash too much with Villa to be honest, if you cast your mind back to 2009 there was a similar instance where West Ham turned up in sky blue but Villa had to change to their white third shirts to resolve a clashing problem.

    P.S. on the subject of Chelski away kits, I wonder what they wore at Man City in the 86/87 season? I know they wore the home kit at Coventry, but given that the jade away kit would have clashed more, would this have been the first instance of them wearing (royal) blue at Man City, which is something more commonplace now?

  132. Denis,
    My point is that the all sky hasn’t caused a problem in the past – though, you’re probably right about this season – Umbro’s version of the old faithful with its claret yoke will probably clash much more than twin chest bands. We’ll see. Have West Ham unveiled a third yet?

    Speaking of Umbro thirds, that new Everton green affair is just gross. Pairing green with orange has worked before – Werder Bremen and Greuther Furth have done it with much success, but Everton’s green is too dark – possibly giving it orange sleeves or something like that would’ve worked. And what was the purpose of unveiling it at Southampton? Is there ANY aspect of the Everton home that clashes with the Saints? Surely West Brom would’ve been a better choice? Maybe even Newcastle with the amount of blue on it this season.

    Denis (2) – I know this’ll probably have everyone in a frantic researching frenzy, but I believe that Leeds’ away in the late 60’s was all royal blue, changing to all yellow a few years later – they wore the yellow shorts with the blue shirts when playing away at Derby or Spurs because of a shorts clash, but the away / third were all one colour, as with the home.

  133. Thanks, Denis.
    The first time I was aware of the yellow and blue kit was for match highlights against Derby when Clough was at the Baseball Ground – puts it between ’69 and ’73 I think. I’d also seen some clips (possibly goal of the season or MOTD retrospectives) of Peter Lorimer from about the same period scoring some screamers in the all yellow kit. That’s what led me to believe that the blue and yellow was a mix & match rather than a proper kit, and the presence of navy shorts at White Hart Lane and black at Derby was a possible reason. I would dispute Jack Charlton’s asertion that the change was down to pragmatism rather than homage – Revie was a well known admirer of ‘Los Blancos’, and his skipper Billy Bremner was at Hampden for the 7-3 EC win over Eintracht Frankfurt, so its always made sense to me.

  134. Hello folks, you’re right Martyn. My understanding from a contact at Leeds who is an expert on kits is that they very much had a mix and match policy for their away kits from the mid 60s through to early 70s. This also included variations on badge usage and also trim, sometimes non contrasting and sometimes contrasting. Blue, yellow, red and of course orange were all worn. I did illustrate quite a few for their programmes a couple of years ago and will do my best to dig them out….

  135. Thanks, John, look forward to it. The 60’s and 70’s were an interesting time for kit experimentation, with clubs ditching years of convention (or simple reversed versions of their home colours) and trying new, and sometimes highly unusual, away colours. Leeds are one example, but also Coventry (green and black), QPR (red and white halves/black shorts), and Newcastle (all red) – also Crystal Palace and their schizophrenic approach to colours which began at that time. And my club, Bayern, from adidas’ arrival in 1965 up to 1974, changed their home, away, and international (third) colours almost every year until they settled on the familiar all red home and white away combinations.

  136. i remember seeing a curious leeds vs chelsea match from the 70s where leeds wore red socks with their white home kit ….a colour more associated with chelsea …and chelsea wore yellow socks with their all blue home …a colour more associated with leeds, ..im assuming it was a case of using the away socks of the time rather than a case of borrowing the other teams but its strange they should choose these colours and that they even considered them a clash issue

  137. 1970 Martyn. Leeds wore red socks at Wembley, Chelsea changed to yellow socks for the Old Trafford (not forgetting the trim on their shorts to yellow as well and even the badge if memory serves me correctly).

  138. Arrrgggghhh! yes you’re right, I should’ve known that…1971 was the ‘Charlie George’ final between Arsenal and Liverpool. Apologies to any Gunners I may have offended!

  139. The Premier League and the FA Cup are the only two competitions in the world (that I know of) that allow two teams to wear the same colour shorts in a match. This is due to the extremely bad wording of FIFA Law 4 regarding a clash of kit. Last weekend Southampton played Everton who turned up in Dark Green Shirts and Black shorts instead of their traditional Blue and White!!!

  140. Bit much to say that PL and FA Cup are the only two, Pat – in fact, I’d make the case that the cup are far stricter than the PL.

    This, from Spain, I’d consider a shorts clash http://img02.mundodeportivo.com/2014/04/20/FC-BARCELONA-ATH-BILBAO-FOTO-M_54405988271_54115221154_600_396.jpg

    It happened in World Cup 94 (a good while ago, I accept! – though Italy-USA in 2006 was arguably one too) http://www.soccermond.com/fifa/world_cup/1994_usa/matches/pics/mexico-bulgaria.jpg

    Check out this from 1991, shorts *and* socks! http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4-sIiEvg9Io/hqdefault.jpg

  141. Yeah, I thought that Southampton / Everton was a bit bonkers, to say the least. Back in the 90’s away shorts were commonplace in England – was a regulation in place then but not now? Because its happened loads of times in the last few years, but I can remember Man Utd wearing black change shorts, Everton blue or black, Blackburn blue (when the first choice was white), Man City navy or sky, Forest black, and so on. There didn’t seem to be half as many bizarre kit choices back then (though I accept it did happen).

    As regards to those examples Denis, the first I would definitely call a clash – I hate navy against black. The second and third examples I think just a good old fashioned impasse – Bulgaria wearing their away strip(correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the home AND away strips have white shorts…?) and Mexico not changing because they were the ‘home’ team. The Marseille Milan match not surprising as both teams are loathe to use alternative home shorts.

  142. Bulgaria-Mexico wasn’t an impasse, Martyn – Bulgaria’s home shorts were green but FIFA were keen to avoid white shirts/green shorts against green shirts/white shorts. When Ireland played them in the same World Cup, they wore white home shorts with white away shirts.

    When Milan met Marseille in the 1993 CL final, both wore white shorts again but Milan changed to black socks.

    Shorts changes come down to team preference in the league. Manchester United, Everton and Forest all still change shorts, though City have got caught up in this ‘preserving the integrity of the kit’ nonsense.

    The only time I recall them changing shorts in recent times was when there wasn’t actually a shorts clash as it was away to Fulham, but they felt that their white shorts might have been troublesome with Fulham’s white shirts.

  143. Sorry, Denis – memory playing tricks on me – for some reason I thought that Bulgaria’s home was green! Never mind…

    It is nonsense about preserving kit integrity – only Arsenal, I think, have (mostly) refused to change their shorts in England – in Germany, Bayern haven’t worn alternative home shorts since 05-06 (and that was when the home ones were white anyway) – they’re not sacred about socks though, and have changed them from time to time.

  144. Liverpool are another such team who preserve the integrity of their home kit, not that there are many occasions where they’ve played another team who wear red shorts. The last instance being at Watford in the early 80’s when they had a yellow change kit. Celtic are another example, only instance I’ve ever seen them wear anything other than white shorts with the hoops was at Arsenal in a friendly in 1991 – and they even wore numbered shirts.

    Man City wore what appeared to be last season’s home shorts at Everton today.

  145. Yes, saw that – poor bit of planning by Nike, wasn’t it? Surely the shorts of the navy away shirt would’ve been OK? This whole business of poor planning on kit suppliers part is really starting to annoy me – Bayern always unveil their away shirt with its own shorts but produce alternatives in time for the first use – for example, the 12-13 white and orange, unveiled as an all white kit, was paired with orange shorts and socks; the 13-14 ‘Octoberfest’ kit had alternative white shorts; last seasons white with red, blue and grey hoops had an alternative maroon pair of shorts, and this seasons all white has already seen use with navy shorts. Its not just the away strips – the Euro strips in 12-13 and 13-14 had bespoke alternative white socks, not just the away pair. Come on Nike, if adidas can do it, why can’t you? I seem to also remember Arsenal during Nike’s time having to use ‘cobbled together’ combinations of their various strips when the three in use didn’t work. In fact, I think the only bespoke alternative shorts were with the yellow and maroon away of a few seasons back – didn’t it have an alternative yellow pair?

  146. Except arsenal played in their blue shorts with their home kit a few years back so thats bollocks …….pardon my rudeness ……and they love playing in either their alternate red or white socks when they get chance

    Only spanish and italian teams are ever concerned with kit integrety from what i have seen

    Mostly barca, real and milan,

  147. That was at martyn btw …not you dennis

    But tbh what i said applys to you too ……13-14 they used blue ….i think their away shorts …but i cant remember if they were plain or had yellow trim

  148. And martyn mean its bollocks when you said that arsenal dont like to change ….not what you said about them in your last post

    They do like to change (in fact arsenal will change entire kits at the drop of a hat if needs must …they aint shy about using their away) ….they just have to do it hastily cobbled together like you said …..because nike are morons, … thank god puma arnt usually that idiotic

    Damn ….why cant this place have a post edit function

  149. They don’t like changing shorts Tony – that game you mention was the first time it happened in 30 years and was only because both away strips would have clashed with Fenerbahce. Presumably UEFA are stricter on shorts clashes than the PL are.

    Arsenal changing to their away ‘at the drop of a hat’ also generally stems from not wanting to change shorts too.

  150. Which is exactly what I meant. I think you’re right, UEFA are stricter – this is why the ‘European’ third shirt thing came about in a big way. These things do happen, but the clubs in question prefer them not to – there was the instance of Liverpool wearing black shorts with the home kit when they played Watford – the only time since the mid 60’s that they’d worn anything other than red, as well as Arsenal wearing anything other than white – I never said it’s never happened, just that they like to avoid it.
    Talking about clashes, what about most unusual, and possibly under rated, kits of all time? I’d like to nominate the Umbro Everton salmon and navy away kit. Not popular, I know, but it was really daring and original for the early 90’s.

  151. Barcelona dropped the integrity of the kit 9 years ago by putting a Unicef logo on the front, though in recent times you could say they don’t have any integrity of the kit at all with the various assortments of their blaugrana shirts. This season’s shower being a prime example!

  152. You see i knew i had seen liverpool in black shorts once i was going to mention that next but i couldnt remember what game it was

    As for arsenal i think the fact they are willing to change their socks still shows that they are willing when necessary so i wouldnt say integrity is a major thing for them …..or they wouldnt have changed in turkey at all ….if they were supplied with a change pair ..would they use them? …i think so

    The yellow and blue kit is just as iconic for them but they will wear yellow shorts

    And as for barca …i think adding unicef was meant to be the point, they still have integrity because they are not profiting ….of course i agree that having a sponsor at all drops their integrity …but it dosnt mean they were not keeping it in mind when they chose unicef

  153. Tony – Arsenal had to change shorts in 2013. UEFA wouldn’t let them wear their home kit as it was, and both change kits would have clashed. It was the only solution, save for creating a fourth kit.

    I think the fact that they haven’t done so at any other time in the last 30 years indicates they’re not keen to do so. Puma had red shorts made for Arsenal last season but they were never worn.

    Arsenal change socks because games never go ahead nowadays with teams in the same socks. Given red socks was historically part of the Arsenal look, it’s not a big change. Off the top of my head, Real Madrid are the only team I know that wears a change kit rather than wearing a different sock colour.

  154. Memory may be playing tricks again, but I thought I’d seen a picture once of Real in blue shorts – would’ve probably been the Kelme era.

  155. But still …changing an entire kit rather than change shorts still counts as willingness to change …just because its changing an entire kit dont make em entirely unwilling to change just unwilling to change shorts i suppose………but tbh i didnt know puma had even given them the option and i didnt know UEFA hadnt, so i guess im wrong

    And i could swear i have seen real in change shorts at some point too but i think i might be thinking of valencia so i didnt mention it

    On another topic i was thinking of all the times when teams have either created a set alt shorts in the same colour as the other kits shorts, example …..england 2004 ….a pair of blue …a pair of white ..and a pair of silver for the away

    Now the silver ones where different designed to the white ones but not by much …..and they looked white at a distance …..i know because i bought a pair em to go with the home top because i thought they were the home alts and i like all white england strips

    They were labeled as such in the shop

    Wasnt till i got them home i realised they were silver

    This kind of thing brings my piss to a boil, the colour looked so similar they might as well have used the alt homes rather than creating a new pair

  156. Oh …and when i say they were silver but looked white at a distance, i mean they are kind of reflective coloured …..sorta like the stripes on a hi vis vest

    You put em in the sun you cant tell they are not white

  157. Or how about Chelsea having white socks for the home and third kit this season that are only different in trim (blue for home, black for third)? I know this is one of Denis’ irritants, but it IS rather pointless.
    Mentioning Barca earlier, I think their transformation from integrity to commerce has been rather alarming. OK, the first sponsor to grace the famous shirt was a charity, so fine. But now we have an airline on the front, electrical manufacturer on the sleeve, and the Unicef logo tucked away on the back, almost as an afterthought. Sad, very sad.
    Re Real Madrid alternative home shorts, I think it would be mid 80’s, Hugo Sanchez era, Kelme supplier. They were a metallic, almost denim blue, and I’m pretty sure came from the away kit of the time. Thoughts, anyone?
    You’re right though Tony, Valencia usually switch to white and have never been shy about doing so. Speaking of the Italian teams, only Milan I think have avoided it. Juventus have switched between black and white in the same season, and I’m positive Inter wore white shorts with the home shirt as recently as the early 00’s – Ronaldo and Zanetti era.

  158. Inter had white shorts with their home kit during their centenary season of 2007/8. I believe it was their original kit.

  159. Milan frequently wore black shorts (and socks) whenever there was a clash. I’m sure one season they had black shorts as the first choice but soon switched them back to white.

  160. Milan have had seasons where black shorts and socks were first choice.

    White shorts/black socks is my preference but in the early 90s they had white shorts and socks for both home and away, changing to black when required on the home.

    The only times I recall them wearing white shorts with black shorts or socks were against Manchester United in the 2006-07 CL and Arsenal a year later.

    When Inter wore white shorts and black socks in 2007-08, it meant that AC wore the rarely-seen comb of black shorts/white socks in their ‘away’ fixture at San Siro.

  161. A-ha – so another one to tick off ‘integrity of kit’.
    Going back to the ‘what constitutes a clash’ – Werder Bremen played Borussia Monchengladbach today, with both teams in their home strips – so it was green with white sleeves/green shorts and socks vs all white with a green and black bar on the shirts. You could tell the teams apart, so it just about worked, but it seemed a bit bizarre, especially when Gladbach have a perfectly acceptable (and newly unveiled) black third kit.
    AND ANOTHER THING…Tony, check this one out :

    http://www.footyheadlines.com/2015/08/dark-red-v-dark-green-massive-color-clash-in-2.-bundesliga.html

    Still think I’m mad?

  162. I have to admit that Nürnberg-Düsseldorf game is a bit of a headache to pick the teams out. Fair enough if Düsseldorf wore that kit against a team in “normal” red, but against a dark shade of red it is a bit problematic.

    Haven’t they got a third kit? I’ve known teams in the German league to have three kits, even if there wasn’t any real need for a third kit?

  163. It reminds me a little bit of the Aston Villa v Man City game from 2012, where Man City turned up in their navy third kit (the previous season’s away kit), which wouldn’t have been so bad in good weather conditions, but on a miserable wet afternoon it was problematic picking the two teams out on TV – even more so that Man City turned up in white shorts, rather than wear the navy shorts from the previous season which would have been more sensical.

    Even the $ky TV commentators admitted it was a clash.

    As for Borussia Mönchengladbach, I was quite surprised they wore white given the amount of white on Werder’s new home kit. I’d guess Werder will wear their away kit for the return fixture!

  164. Fortuna’s third shirt is all sky, making the decision to wear the away kit at Nurnberg all the more bizarre. Agreed about Werder, though their away kit is white so it’ll probably be the third kit (purpley blue with orange trim).

  165. Just playing my old subbuteo with my lad. Mexico 86 v liverpool in the umbro pinstripes. With the glare of the fading sunlight there was a definite clash of kits!!!!

  166. Thought everyone might like to see this :

    http://www.footyheadlines.com/2015/09/leaked-champions-league-twitter-reveals-unreleased-third-kits-unusual-home-kit-choices.html

    It appears that a lot of the teams have switched their kit preferences for European competition – Gladbach wearing black as a home shirt is perhaps not that surprising (it was their original colours until the late 60’s), but PSG in the black kit at home? If Bayern follow their usual strategy the nice navy third will be worn at home in the group stages, which is why its listed as second choice, then back to red in the knockouts.

  167. @ martyn LOL…..yes i do still think you are mad but don’t take that the wrong way,

    you see in that picture the green team has red trim and numbers its not surprising their was confusion …….numbers sponsors and trim can make up a BIG part of the overall kit colour

    you see i did originally say that when paired with red as a secondary colour green can clash with red (check what i said …..i DID say it) and i used the Brazilian league as an example if i remember correctly,

    it was in those previous examples you provided where said i didn’t see a clash, ……i have however admitted the the light levels can also be a factor ……in bad weather it might not be a good combo but in direct sunlight red vs green (bottle green or otherwise) is not a combo i have a problem telling apart

    actually ……..while we are going back to old subjects, do teams STILL change ONLY their socks like they used to in the 70’s?

    i have already given examples of this, Leeds wearing red socks with their all white home vs Chelsea and Colchester, Chelsea wearing yellow socks vs Leeds, and Man City wearing dark blue socks with their all sky blue home vs West Ham

    i have already touched on the weird colour choices for Leeds and Chelsea (and it cannot have been a clash issue for Leeds because they wore the red against Colchester too, and Colchester wore all blue in that match) but i do want to ask if this has happened in any recent games to any ones knowledge?

    specifically 13-14 season …..then i know to add them to my copy of FIFA 14 lol

    and @ Martyn again …….didnt Bayern wear a grey home kit for Europe in 1999? i seem to remember them playing in it for the final vs Man United, im pretty sure it was their European home …..looked rather smart too with the red arms

    that was an interesting season to me actually,

    United and Bayern met 3 times – twice in the group once in the final,

    they both played Barcelona so they both went to the Nou Camp twice – once in the group once in the final

    Man United drew with BOTH teams in the group stages 3-3, 2-2, 3-3 and 1-1 respectively

    and both Man United and Bayern were going for a treble when they reached the final -United had already won the league and cup and Bayern had won the league and qualified for the DFB Pokal final

    a rare example of the planets in alignment if you ask me lol

  168. oh ….i forgot ..both teams had to qualify for the champions league that year too because they hadnt won their leagues in the 1997-98 season, ……and both wear red ……..truly a strange year lol

  169. I recall United wearing their white away at the Olympic Stadium, even though their home would have been okay given Bayern’s home was navy.

    They also wore white in both games against Barcelona that season.

  170. right this is what is confusing everyone

    the kit was their official third kit but they liked to use it in europe …using the white and blue kits only once in 7or 8 games …so people have christened it their european kit

    i dont know how often it was used in the bundesliga to compare but they even used the grey against Dinamo Kyiv ….who played in white for that match

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7120009/1998_99_champions_league_bayern_munich_goals_road_to_the_final/

  171. The grey third was defined as an ‘international kit’. I can only assume Utd wearing white earlier in that years competition was due to the large areas of red on the Bayern home, though honestly, as the main colour was such a dark shade of blue it really wouldn’t have caused any sort of clash – Utd did wear their white second shorts with the away shirt in the Olympiastadion, meaning all navy vs all white avoided any clash, slight or otherwise. As for the Kiev game I believe it wasn’t unveiled until relatively late in the season, so was ready for the semi final in the Ukraine. I don’t think it was ever used in the Bundesliga. The reason for the sudden and late season change is lost in the mists of time…perhaps after the win against Kiev it was considered a ‘lucky’ kit…the outcome of the final (still painful after 16 years!) perhaps explains why it hasn’t re-appeared as a Euro kit since (though the colours appeared in a minor way on the 09/10 Euro kit).

  172. If it was used earlier in the competition it would’ve been an alternative home, which is why it was described as an ‘international’ kit – Bayern did the same thing in the early 70’s, and indeed in two years from 00-02 – though that one was all red.

    The final word on red vs green – the situation I referred to was in bright sunshine – even this season this causes problems, as so many of the stadiums in Germany have ‘membranes’ in the roofs which mean there is a huge amount of light reflected on to the pitches – this season it has even caused problems with white and green.

  173. i already said it was used against Brondby in the groups and also Manchester United at Old Trafford i think

    either way its in that video and pic i posted above

    and if its the stadium that is causing the light problems ………and i am just throwing this out their now before we end this then its not the fault of the kit colours ……..witch was the original debate

    yes their is such a thing as too much light ……and yes it would cause a change in tone as much as a rainy day but these are conditions manufacturers CANNOT plan for

    its up to the teams and officials on the day

    so my original assessment still stands, a red vs green cl;ash is conditional, and it is not stupid to assume they wont

  174. Yes, I realised my error after I’d posted it – I think the overall answer is it was an alternative home kit just used in Europe.

    The colour clash thing is just me being pedantic – I’ll admit it! I know its tough for suppliers to plan for every eventuality, and colour vs colour is more obvious, and therefore more of a priority than shade vs shade on a rainy / cloudy / sunny day – another example from this season in slightly dodgy light was the latest Milan shirt – looks all black from a distance.

    Denis – my mistake – I thought black was first choice – I think it was because of the match v Arsenal in the cup when Ryan Giggs scored that solo goal wearing black shorts.

  175. The talk of the weekend is short clashes – the aforementioned Man Utd v Liverpool situation (and if New Balance didn’t produce an alternative pair, then why didn’t they wear the shorts from the third kit…?), as well as Everton v Chelsea (likewise), and Barca v Atletico (both teams in full home colours). The latter situation has come up before. Differentation in all three cases is not too bad, I’m being picky, but I’m not the only one! I personally think alternative shorts / socks should be mandatory. They do seem to adhere to it in Germany, but some do slip through the net! And re. the Man Utd 99 away kit – I saw that launch pic when I was searching myself – I think between the launch and its first use there was a switch. Not the first or last time that happened.

  176. And what do people think of the Ipswich third kit situation? It was unveiled as orange at the end of last season, was registered with the FA, then they ran out of stock so have had to do ANOTHER orange kit in a different template, which Ipswich can only sell 10,000 of because of a teamwear supply clause!

  177. I think you’re slightly wrong, Martyn – it was last season’s away kit, rather than a strip unveiled at the end of last season? Don’t think this one is being sold at all.

    Re Everton-Chelsea, I think Chelsea wearing blue shorts would have made the situation worse.

  178. It was registered as an away kit last season to be carried over as a third for this – but a lack of stock means they’ve had to issue a new version based on the same colours (as the colours had already been registered with the FA). This seasons away kit is dark red and blue stripes – pointless, in other words, so the orange is effectively the away kit. It can be sold but only in numbers up to 10,000. Probably be done as a limited issue for season ticket holders or something like that.

    I think Chelsea should have used the black shorts from the third kit. Wouldn’t have been a great solution but I hate to see same short colours. Its just me being picky! I don’t even know if they have an alternative away short selection this season anyway – red would work, as its a trim colour on the home and away shirt – this would also be an effective antidote to Everton’s colours, plus similar situations moving forward. Bayern’s new away shirt was unveiled with white shorts but an alternative navy pair has been used, and will probably be the first choice throughout the season.

  179. Martyn, Shorts clashes are not an issue for referees. I have never in 15 years as an official had a situation where a shorts clash has caused a problem. When I started as a Ref, on the parks and council pitches, both sides would regularly wear black shorts and socks, we had to clamp down on the sock clashes but shorts are not a problem.

  180. Sorry, some referees might not see it as an issue, but others might. It’s not necessarily a shorts clash but an overall clash. And more importantly, it affects supporters much more than the officials who are closer to the action. Fans see an abundance of similar colours across the pitch and that creates a clash.
    For example here: http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76984000/jpg/_76984359_andreasweimanngetty.jpg

    Although Villa wearing their home at Stoke was bad enough, the fact that they at least changed their shorts removed the issue of there being red/Claret and white all over the pitch. With white shorts that would have been far worse for spectators to view from the stands. It’s about time that (and tv viewers) was taken into consideration much more than what the ref thinks who will always follow specific incidents at a much closer distance.

  181. I’ll let Bournemouth off for the pink kit at Norwich because its for cancer awareness, so if they wear it everywhere away this season, clash or not, then I’m all for it.

    Villa wearing alternative shorts at Stoke is exactly what I mean – white shorts = problem; claret shorts = no problem. I wouldn’t say any of it is essential, its just me – I prefer no element of a kit clashing, and alternative shorts / socks have been used for many iconic club moments down the years. As mentioned by John in TC Vol.1, Man Utd’s black pair is just as recognisable with the home shirt as the white.

  182. Does anyone disagree with me that Chelsea wearing their blue shorts would have made things more troublesome? I recall West Ham wearing white/sky/sky at Man City in Carling Cup in 2013 and there were a lot of complaints.

  183. The worst thing about West Ham wearing white/sky blue/sky blue in that League Cup fixture was that they had a perfectly good black third shirt available. When the two sides met again on the final day of the season West Ham wore the black jersey!

  184. I agree about that West Ham strip at City, Denis. However, yet again there is ref who thinks it looks finest close quarters, and it probably does. They should have little or no input.

    In modern football with clubs having to declare their strips before the season begins, I can see no reason why this can’t be taken a stage further and they list the strips they will wer for each away game. Any issues can then be addressed well in advance.

  185. Agreed, Matt. A little pre-planning goes a long way! Personally I think, as I said before, that Chelsea’s alternative away shorts should be red.

    What does everyone think of last nights CL games? Although I can understand Man Utd wearing white shorts with the new third shirt against PSV, Juventus at the Etihad with the third shirt paired with the HOME shorts seems a little bizarre, especially as the trim doesn’t match. Can anyone explain that to me as it seems strange?

  186. I find it astonishing in the era of digital and HD TV that any spectator finds a shorts clash an issue though I don’t disagree with the point about Villa’s use of claret shorts being sensible.

    This might seem contradictory, but I like that Man United change to black shirts at Everton, it is easily done as they have already black shorts for the away kit, and I feel there is more integrity shown buy doing this this, than for example, Arsenal switching from red/white to yellow to avoid a short/sock clash.

  187. It’s not really the tv viewers that matter that much, though they should be a consideration, it’s the fans who pay to watch a game. Shorts clashes create problems when viewed within a kit.

  188. I think you and I are fighting this one together Matt! I think when it is done within a sensible level, then its fine. As touched upon earlier, Man Utd changing to black shorts at Everton is sensible – likewise Everton should change to blue at Man Utd. I do find it bizarre that in England a lot of the teams don’t even seem to produce specific alternative shorts, or at least produce a pair for one of the other strips that matches seamlessly. Bayern do the alternative shorts thing, Werder Bremen will use the white shorts from the away kit when required, Dortmund use the yellow ones from their away kit, and so on. It just seems to me in a lot of cases that common sense has gone out the window.

  189. I should have said that the above case with Bayern applies to the away kit, not the home – these days if the shorts only clash (like away at Hamburg) then they will use one of the other strips, which in the case of HSV will be the third.

  190. There’s a kind of a irony in that Bayern have altered the style of their home so much but never change shorts, though I do understand how wearing white or red shorts with red shirts at Hamburg wouldn’t be ideal.

    Did anyone else notice last night that Juventus wore black shorts with white stripes – the home change set – with their third shirt rather than the black-fading-to-white third shorts?

  191. Maccabi Tel-Aviv wearing yellow and blue halves at Chelski. I think some refs would have seen that as a clash even though the kit is 90% yellow

  192. Re Juventus shorts – if its half black, half white then that to me is not a clash, especially with City being such a light strip overall.

    Re Maccabi – not a clash AT ALL in my eyes – the kit is a particularly fluorescent yellow so its just the effect of having a navy stripe down one side. Even just the shirts side to side wouldn’t create a clash.

  193. I finally caught up with the Everton v Chavski game from the weekend. Can I assume many of you on here would be critical of the Champions wearing white shorts? Cos I think it actually helped. Had they switched to the home shorts we’d have had Blue/White/White v White/Blue/Blue and that would have been an overall clash, the white shorts made it clearer in my opinion. That being said, they could have worn the black third kit and avoided all of this!

  194. Yeah, I said that up the page Andy – it probably seems counterintuitive but both in white shorts made it easier as it wasn’t a case of having to distinguish blue/white against white/blue (I think the socks are decoupled from the rest of the kit).

    As an aside, I think white/black/blue would have looked well on Chelsea.

  195. Never been a fan of combinations of the same colours against each other, so year Chelsea should have worn black. Wearing white or blue shorts was wrong in this case. The wore white/blue/blue there in 06/07 and that didn’t look great either.

    I went to Carlisle v Rochdale in 90/91, blue/white/blue v white/blue/white was what both teams had panned to wear. The ref made them swap shorts to make it all blue v all white. Both teams strips were made by Ribero so only someone with particularly keen eyes in the crowd with have noticed the initials of each team on the shorts… (Ribero didn’t do badges on shorts then)

  196. I see adidas have produced 3 different pairs of white socks for Manchester United this season? Why? Well,money obviously but anyone with any sense would just buy one pair! The home change and away socks even have red/black trim! United/adidas only had to produce a black with red/white trim 3rd shirt and could have mixed/match with the home/away shirts and socks…everyones happy apart from the money people!!!

  197. It’s awful john, isn’t it? I despair. The third has black change socks too, so they have five different pairs in only two colours

  198. Utd have previous in this though, don’t they? I remember back in the Umbro days when they had a black or white away it had its own socks, and for the late 90’s European strip that had bespoke socks too, in white. It also happened on quite a few occasions under Nike. I know the alternative home socks were usually the ones from the white away kit from that particular season, but the black ones from memory were always relative to their kit – they had a black one trimmed with white under Nike, right at the start of the contract, which could have used the home socks, but didn’t.

  199. Aye that’s a great example (although it wasn’t a sky blue away kit… United in sky blue?!) and they also had them the year after with different black socks on the red, yellow & green and black kits.

  200. Matt,
    You’re right – I think that one was the blue one with wood grain effect on it – I would describe as mid blue rather than sky.

    In 93-94, as mentioned, they had black trimmed with red and white home, black trimmed with yellow and green away, and black trimmed with yellow and blue third. So this season is by no means the first time. Not to bash the Old Trafford club too much, I’m sure there are quite a few other clubs who are just as guilty…Chelsea for one, though back at the start of the Abramovich era the nice white away kit with the blue and black chest stripe was at least shown with blue socks which DID alternate with the home when required. Not this season though!

  201. I remember that one john b – looked like Man U used the away socks from the 92/93 away kit. That match at the Dell still had a huge kit clash however – Tim Flowers wore a green jersey with black sleeves, which had a plain black back, with black shorts and socks.

  202. The new AC Milan home kit is horrendous. The red is so dark, and coupled with grey trim makes the kit look all black from a distance…is there a reason that the red is so dark this year? If the black third kit didn’t have the bright bits on it it would be completely superfluous.

    Despite my scepticism, Leverkusen did use last seasons all red home (now the away) at Dortmund yesterday. If this seems a bit strange given Dortmund’s yellow, the large areas of black on the new Leverkusen home means there would have been a partial clash, meaning an all red solution actually makes sense. Of course, Leverkusen could’ve used the away shorts with the home, thereby avoiding a shorts clash, but actually switching to all red made perfect sense. I stand corrected!

  203. Whilst on paper not a clash I found it hard to watch the southampton v man utd game. Southampton in black shorts and united in a black top. Southampton in red and white with utd in white shorts. Can’t think of a solution from utds kit options as ththree main colours of Southampton redwhite black are the colours of uniteds shirts

  204. don’t want to sound too much like a pedant, but Milan’s away kit is actually a fairly dark green, but side by side with the home kit they are both difficult to contrast.

  205. Does anyone know of a specific reason WHY the Milan red is so dark this year? As far back as I can remember it has been a relatively light shade. Is it a retro thing to tie in with the ‘St Georges’ badge (which I know is an old badge from Milan’s history)?

  206. Bit of an oddity in Scotland tonight where Raith Rovers, who normally wear navy, somehow decided to see fit to wear their dark green (with black hoops on the front) away kit at Celtic.

    Whilst on contrast the two sides were distinguishable it just didn’t make sense for a team whose shirts are in the blue spectrum to wear a green kit at Celtic?!

  207. I had the same thought when I saw that Jon, seems bizarre that they chose to wear the away kit at Parkhead

    Regarding Man Utd at Southampton, I thought black/ white/ white would have been a better choice

  208. Indeed, reminds me of the time Real Madrid decided to wear navy at Xérez (who wear blue) a few years ago, because they “did an Arsenal”…… ridiculous decision.

  209. i notice teams tend to stick to home kits in derbys barring perhaps the recent tyne-wear derbies. Arsenal seem to wear away colours in every other away game with Newcastle being the exception.

  210. i was going to mention the united southampton game too

    …..whilst not technically a clash it bloody hurt my eyes to watch and once again is a demonstration on how much of an impact red trim can have on a shirt

    it was stupid to wear a combination of red white and black against another team wearing red white and black and you would have thought adidas would have taken this into account and prepared a blue third kit pre season instead of a black one

    oh wait ….i forgot ..adidas thought southampton played in all red when they supplied them

  211. According to the Premier League Arsenal have not registered their red socks but it has not stopped them wearing them in both the Premier League and Capital One Cup.

  212. Norwich changed to their alternative strip at West Ham United yesterday – presumably for the only reason that the Premier League allowed them to.

  213. The whole problem with clashes lies with FIFA – Their Law 4 states – ‘the two teams must wear colours that distinguish them from each other……’ – what does that actually mean??

  214. someone should show that FIFA rule book to referees in Brazil then, because the amount of kit clashes that go on over there is utterly ridiculous.

  215. Pat, its really very simple. You must wear kits that do not clash.

    The referee has the final decision on what is suitable. Sadly, clubs (actually more likely marketing departments) can pick and chose when they change. I would like to see a rule to say you can only change when ther is a clash, it wont happen though, money drives everything these days.

  216. Bizarre kit choices were all over the place at the weekend in the PL – apart from the aforementioned, there was Man City turning up to Spurs in the navy away strip, with large areas of navy (and navy shorts) worn by the home side. Although the two teams were distinguishable, surely City’s home kit would have been sufficient? sky blue, white shorts against white and navy. If this was still considered a clash, why not the third? that would’ve represented NO clash AT ALL.

    Norwich in the away kit against the Hammers was another one – I know green and claret are completely different colours, but only the yellow shorts created a complete contrast – with the bright sunshine over the weekend dark shirts are dark shirts regardless of colour. Surely it would have been the best opportunity for Norwich to wear that hideous third kit?

    And Arsenal against Leicester in the away kit. Errrr, why? against an all blue team the Gunners home presented NO clash WHATSOEVER. Changing to an away strip with large areas of navy, and in a dark gold to boot, really defies belief.

    Finally, I like that Sunderland away strip – the two tone green effect is really unusual and unique. adidas have done a similar thing with the Ingolstadt away, just in two tones of blue. One of the best teamwear templates this season I think.

  217. It’s just a part of football now that teams will change despite there being no need. We’re even seeing it at the Rugby World Cup – Uruguay and Romania changed against Australia and Ireland respectively yesterday

  218. I long ago stopped wondering about Rugby Union – strange changes, no change shorts, and away strips at home…Wales also wear their away shirt (usually at home) when a new one comes out, despite the fact that they very rarely play a team with red as a primary colour! England aren’t immune to doing that either, and it goes on all the time in the Premiership.

  219. And Bayern do it in the Champions League 😉

    In rugby they’re not ‘away kits’, they’re alternatives. While football went away from the tradition of the home side changing in the event of a clash, rugby didn’t.

    The changing for autumn internationals is a relatively new thing, no more outrageous than what happens in football.

  220. Haha, Denis! Bayern sometimes play in the away kit at home because the third kit is actually classed as the ‘International Kit’ ie. alternative home.

    I thought RU teams called them away kits? I’m sure Wales’ anthracite, grey, navy and yellow kits (all the Under Armour ones) were classed as away?

  221. In international rugby union the home side change strip if there is a clash of colours, hence why its often referred to as a “change strip”. More often than not Wales wear their change strip for some autumn internationals as some kind of marketing exercise. We never need to change kit for the 6 Nations, but may be required to wear a change kit in the World Cup if we play the likes of Tonga or Japan.

    However at league level the visiting team is usually ordered to change their kit in the event of a clash, but I guess it varies from country to country.

  222. Yeah, I saw that Denis – from a distance it was very close.
    Just saw an article about Sevilla – apparently their 3 kits were considered too close to Juventus’ home so UEFA made them come up with a fourth kit. Yes, that’s right – not the supplier, not the club, but UEFA. Personally I think this madness has to stop. I think its time for UEFA / FIFA to issue general guidelines about colour combinations. Back in the 90’s there didn’t seem to be half as many instances of this sort of thing. It could work – for example, if your home shirt is solid royal blue, then you are allowed to use any colour other than from the same spectrum – so navy, purple, sky and mid blue are banned – similarly, if a team has stripes, halves, quarters or hoops, then neither of the two colours are allowed on either the away or third as a main colour. This would still give suppliers a huge spectrum to choose, and would also encourage unusual choices, which I’ve always enjoyed (provided its not brown…).
    Of course, the cynic in me remembers that in the 90’s third kits were not often used because away shirts usually covered various eventualities, and suppliers these days pick ‘close’ colours PRECISELY so they can have a third kit that sees plenty of use. Unfortunately the whole process is now driven by commerce rather than common sense.

  223. Some more bizarre kit choices in the PL at the weekend :

    1. Man City v Newcastle – not on the face of it a clash, but the blue on the Magpies strip this season, coupled with the solid white back, meant that only the black shorts and socks avoided a clash.

    2. Sunderland v West Ham – again, not ostensibly a clash, but the large areas of white against a very pale sky blue shade meant that only black shorts prevented confusion.

    3. Aston Villa v Stoke – this one was more bizarre – especially when both teams wore white shorts. Only the large areas of white on the Potters shirts avoided a clash. More bizarre when you consider Stokes perfectly good black and green away kit.

    I know I’m being pedantic, but in some of these cases away / home strips have been worn previously to avoid clashes – the old red v claret thing comes up again and again – but if West Ham had to wear their away strip (which wasn’t an ideal solution) then why didn’t Stoke? All I ask for is consistency!

  224. Some interesting leaked adidas international kits coming out…Not only the new Germany home / away, but new kits for Japan, Russia, Bosnia and Belgium. If its follows that these will be the new templates for the club sides (in full or part) the as a Bayern fan we could be in for a treat. Bravo adidas!

  225. Talking of Adidas, I spotted that Scotland have started using a new training kit, it is just the standard Tiro 15 range, I had just assumed that this was just a temporary training kit before the new Euro 16 style stuff came in as this happened 2 years ago where a standard team wear training wear range was used for about 2 games prior to the bespoke condivo 14 range being delivered.

    However last night an email arrived in my inbox last night showing that this new training range was available to buy which didn’t happen with the temporary range 2 years ago.

    It got me wondering whether the Scotland Adidas contract has been downgraded to the same level as the Northern Ireland and Wales Adidas deals.

    Scotland have/ had the high level Adidas deal with bespoke training range colour ways and the players using Adizero kits rather then the commercially available Climacool kits and also on the kits themselves, we had the usual differences with the Adidas logo placement being on the back of the shorts and socks with ‘ALBA’ being embroidered on the front of the socks where NI and Wales have always been issued with team wear style training wear and players using Climacool kits with the adidas logo placement on shorts and socks being on the front, the same as any other ‘second tier’ Adidas supplied kit.

    It would be a major disappointment if Scotland were to be out down this path of having more generic Adidas kits and training wear, both 2013/15 kits were fantastic and the bespoke Condivo 14 training range colours were fantastic (I own far too much of it!)

    I think the new kit will be released within the next month or so, it’ll be interesting to see what it’s like and where the short and socks Adidas logo’s are placed!

  226. I’m intrigued to see what Adidas come up with for Wales now we will be taking our place in France next summer. I’d love to see a recreation of the 1984-1987 home shirt with the horizontal striped bands on the front.

    I wonder what colour we’d have for the away kit, hope it’s another yellow strip!

  227. Haven’t seen any leaked Wales Euro 2016 shirts yet, Jon. Having seen a lot of the others its anyone’s guess – adidas seem to be creating unique designs for each country. I think a new version of the yellow and green away shirt from the early 80’s would be cool, though.

  228. Ciaran that is the worst clash I have seen. How can a referee allow teams to play in the same colours? There seems to be no rules in GAA regarding colour clashes and neither team will give in and change.

  229. I’ve been looking at that Footyheadlines website to see if our new kit design has been leaked yet, quite a number of new Adidas designs (on what appear to be 3D model renders) have been shown already.

    I hope they don’t give us an unusual choice of away colour as they’ve done already with some teams. Apparently Germany’s next away shirt is grey and green, and Belgium are set to have a sky blue (!) jersey with the tricolour on the front arranged horizonally.

    I’d love to see a yellow and green kit, or even have a black strip with red, white and green trim. Just anything but white really.

    And as for that GAA photo, that is an absolutely shocking clash, how was that even allowed? Even if I was playing on the pitch I’d have great difficulty picking out a team-mate.

  230. Like that new Belgium away – it takes inspiration from cycling jerseys so is a fresh take on away colours. Not sure about the Germany away – will have to see it in the flesh first – apparently it’s inspired by street football, though I’m not quite sure what they mean by that. Spain away is stunning, Russia away classy. On the whole, good, interesting choices so far. As for Wales, following adidas’ logic with the other away shirts (being inspired by something from that country), I would probably take a guess that it’ll be green and white horizontal halves (hopefully with a dragon on it!) or solid green. The home, if I had to guess, might well take inspiration from 1958. We’ll see.

  231. The latest GAA clash as Denis has already stated is nothing unusual unfortunately. But there is hope….down in Kerry, two teams who both play in black jerseys with an amber hoop (Austin Stacks and Dr Crokes) recently played each other in a County semi-final and they BOTH changed – Stacks to an amber jersey with a black hoop and Crokes sported a white jersey with an amber hoop. Common sense – hopefully a change in trend…..

  232. Crokes and Stacks have pretty much the same strip though and play fairly often so they have a plan in place at least. Most competitions mandate that both change, as far as I know.

  233. Great work Denis!
    Interesting to see that in rugby, at least, teams generally avoid using away strips altogether if they can help it – no superfluous third kits there!

    Also, I still think the New Zealand kit is possibly the most instantly recognisable kit in all of world sport, with the possible exception of Brazil in football. Even people with only a passing knowledge of RU know who the ‘All Blacks’ are.

  234. In RU my preference is for Wales – interesting that although their kits generally last two years when a WC is not on, they instantly bring out a special WC kit which supercedes the existing strip, rather than just adding the tournament logo to the one they have. Is this a regulation? because I notice that all of the Six Nations participating teams have done it this time.

    Back to Wales – personally I prefer the Reebok kits – some of those were stunning (apart from the one with black shorts, which just seemed odd).

  235. Strange goings on in Germany. Werder Bremen have just unveiled a new fourth shirt which is white, the same as the third shirt (last seasons away). The only difference is it has a red sash instead of green trim (red and white are Bremen’s city colours, used as a home shirt briefly in the 70’s). The third shirt? discontinued with immediate effect. I know Bayern did something similar a few years ago when the orange and white away kit started the 13/14 season but swapped with the white and green when Oktoberfest began, but Bayern never made any secret that a new shirt was on the way – the timing was deliberate to tie in with the festivities. Bremen / Nike seem to have just decided on a whim to bring this one out.

  236. Very odd that, I know Werder had issued that first white away/third shirt in 2013/14, so it’s strange how come they decided to introduce this “reverse Peru” shirt now, instead of marketing it as a third shirt at the start of the season.

    On the subject of sashes, also not sure why Rayo Vallecano decided to wear their dark grey with pink sash kit at Barça when the white with red sash home kit was a far more sensical option (in terms of contrast). Much good it did them too as Neymar scored 4 in a 5-2 win

  237. Interesting to see Palace-West Ham played with both teams in blue and red – West Ham’s away of course is a very light blue and the hoop is claret so there was no real issue and the navy third wouldn’t have worked, obviously.

    Still, though, can’t say I recall them wearing blue at Selhurst Park in the past.

  238. I remember West Ham wearing claret and blue at Selhurst Park in the 03/04 season, mainly because Palace had their “Ronald McDonald” kit which was red and blue stripes from the front, but bizarrely had a navy blue back.

    And with West Ham’s away kit being plain navy that season, they wore the home strip – they really could have done with a third kit.

  239. I would have said that the home would have been fine – the Palace strip this year is mostly blue, so with white shorts the home would’ve been fine.

    Back to Bremen, Bayern wore their white away strip (with its change white shorts) at the Weserstadion, against Bremen in all green with white sleeves. Wasn’t ideal, and Bayern’s home, or failing that, third, would’ve been better. Just to prove that bizarre kit choices go on in Germany too!

  240. It wasn’t ideal was it?

    I’m surprised Bayern wore their away kit for no reason at Werder Bremen. Mind you there’s loads of bizarre kit instances in the Bundesliga (wearing away kits at home is a common thing)

  241. The ‘away kit at home thing’ is a common occurrence in the Bundesliga, agreed, but usually with a reason – for example when Bayern unveiled the white and green kit in 13/14 to tie in with Oktoberfest, the first game was at home, so they wore it to unveil it. They still had to get permission from the DFB though. The other instances are a bit more obscure – a few seasons ago Wolfsburg switched their home colours from green to white when the season was under way, and also changed their home short colour one year quite a long way into the season…Generally teams unveil new kits at their last home games in Germany, which are sometimes away strips. The instances of ‘special kits’ are far more common in Germany than in other countries too. Bremen have changed their badge over Xmas for over a decade now (their regular diamond shaped badge becomes a tree shape!), and quite a few teams have Xmas kits. Dortmund even brought out a new shirt just for the derby match against Schalke!

  242. Keepers wearing similar colours to outfield players in a real pet hate of mine, last season Rangers wore a ridiculously close shade of blue gk kit when outfield players were wearing royal blue, there was a horrendous one in the Football League the other week, I think it was possibly Northampton vs Hartlepool when Hartlepool (think it was them anyway) had a fluo yellow away kit on and the Northampton gk wore a fluo green kit, was barely distinguishable watching the highlights! The gk in orange and outfield in red is becoming rather too common now, as Denis rightly said, if Arsenal would change at Blackpool then why is it appropriate for their goalie to wear orange! Another annoyance of mine is prevalent at Arsenal now where Cech has been issued with s/s shirts with l/s compression underneath, I can’t abide goalkeepers who do that!

  243. I remember 11 years ago Jens Lehmann wore a light blue kit whilst his Arsenal team mates wore (royal) blue in the Charity, erm sorry, Community Shield match. That wasn’t particularly clever, neither was that Basel keeper wearing burnt orange with burgundy shorts at Middlesbrough during the latter’s amazing comeback in the UEFA Cup.

    Back in my day, all goalkeepers wore green, except if Plymouth were playing……. didn’t cause any clashing problems whatsoever!

  244. Yeah, it has got rather daft hasn’t it? Green is most logical, or all black, all yellow, or in the case of Sepp Maier, sky blue and black. Goalies wearing purple, red, and orange just seem wrong. I remember that horror show of a GK strip that Asics made in the mid 90’s – orange with faded diagonal stripes (shudder).

  245. as a wednesday fan im happy …it confused them enough to lose, as a kit fan im confused as to why arsenal needed to change

  246. I think that one will run and run…You can look at it a thousand different ways and it still makes no sense. Especially the fact that Puma had to produce a bespoke pair of turquoise shorts and socks because the anthracite clashed with Wednesday’s black…but…hello? Do Arsenal not play in red?

  247. Not only was it a pointless change, it was a change to an absolutely rotten kit, I’ve not liked any of Arsenal’s Puma kits so far

  248. Last seasons home and away were nice but I don’t like this years offerings – gold trim as an afterthought on the home, FAR too dark a shade of gold on the away, pointless third because of the above. But being honest, Puma have always been a bit ‘marmite’, even as far back as the 80’s / 90’s – particularly in Germany, Werder Bremen and Eintracht Frankfurt ended up with ‘jaunty angle’ stripes and even in Werder’s case similar to lightning bolts…typical examples of early 90’s excess. And don’t even get me started on the striped shorts they did for Werder one season!

  249. Arsenal’s Puma kits so far have been uniformly poor. Not a patch on those that preceded them, especially the 12-14 home strip.

    I don’t see the point in this season’s gold kit – it’s so similar to last season’s away, so why not keep that one?

    As for this campaign’s cup kit, well, there aren’t words to fit to express how awful it is.

    The worst thing about Puma shirts is all the unnecessary detailing which clutters their designs and detracts from the better features.

  250. I think that comes down to the ever increasing size of tournament logos – with the Puma symbol above it makes the whole effect very cluttered. I think the Puma kits look good on paper, less so in reality. But there are exceptions – VfB Stuttgart have 3 nice, classy kits made by Puma. I think the trouble with the Arsenal ones is the ‘more is more’ approach. That away kit – OK, make it gold, but does it need extra trim? No. Does it need that large diamond pattern? No. I remember back in 2002 when Nike changed the colour of the Gunners away to metallic gold it had minimal trim, just navy bars down the side, and worked really well.

  251. Newcastle’s kits this season from Puma are awful, not to mention impractical – a (practically) white away kit when the home kit is 80% white is just plain stupid, and with having a navy third kit, what will they be wearing at West Brom??

  252. Hi, first-time poster!

    Agree with the consensus on Puma shirts, over-designed and ill-fitting.

    Quite interested to see what Ajax do in the Europa away to Celtic, considering the away strip is green. Could use last year’s away, but that’s not something they’ve done in recent times. It will also be hard for both to wear change kits, since all of Celtic’s feature some form of green.

  253. Agreed. Newcastle has always been a tricky proposition for away kits, as they seem to avoid red (possibly because of Boro and Sunderland both wearing it) which would be a good solution otherwise. I think the old Norwich style used in the early 90’s was a good, solid solution which didn’t necessitate a third strip. Why not bring it back? I’ve always thought the very idea of black or white away strips for the toon is daft, but kit suppliers will persist in doing it!

  254. The yellow away kit Newcastle had in 2013/14 was very nice! The orange, white and Navy one they had the previous year to that was also a great kit

    I agree that it is madness for Newcastle not to have a kit in a bold colour such as yellow, orange, green or blue etc which would provide a complete contrast for them, too often Newcastle have had 2 change kits which could both easily clash with either white or black

  255. Newcastle did have a red away kit of a fashion in 2012, when they had a burgundy kit, though they seemed to favour their fluorescent yellow third kit more often in the event of a colour clash. However I think they seem to have avoided wearing red ever since a certain FA Cup match in 1972 that often gets repeated when giantkillers are discussed.

  256. Strange goings on in Germany over the weekend – Werder Bremen released a new white and red third kit to replace last seasons white and green, which was apparently to be used straight away, THEN they play Dortmund in the discontinued white and green third. AT HOME. I can think of no reason behind this strange sequence of events. There would be no ‘double clash’ scenario with BVB, so why bother?

  257. Bizarre clash from the world of RU : Exeter Chiefs at home to Leicester Tigers. All black with minimal white trim vs all dark green. Only areas of white on the Tigers’ strip and white sleeves prevents the two strips from being nearly identical.

  258. So, most of the Euro 2016 strips are out. I think this tournament may be the best dressed in recent memory – the adidas offerings in particular (with the exception of Ukraine and Bosnia, based on slightly older templates) are stunning.

    Really like the new Germany home, still haven’t decided about the away; Really like both Belgium kits – stunning; Really like the Spain away but less sure about the home; Really like the Russia away but not so much the home; Really like the Denmark home but not the away; Both Sweden kits nice; Not really sure about Northern Irelands; Wales away a bit pedestrian, and again based on an older template(s).

    Overall, great effort adidas – traditional homes and unconventional aways inspired by unusual things – and why not? Though the buzz online seems to be about the size of the short numbers!

  259. Some interesting work by Adidas, my favourites are Germany home, Spain away, Denmark away, Belgium home & away, Wales away and Spain away

    However I cannot describe my disliking for the Germany away, I think it’s awful, I think what makes it even worse in my eyes is the fact that it’s replacing an absolutely beautiful kit!

  260. Agreed – the ‘Flamengo’ away was one of the best ever, everything about that one was class. I can sort of see what they’ve tried to do with it, but maybe its the wrong colour – grey green just looks a bit…sludgy.

    Interesting response in the media to the Spain away – you like it, I like it, but some elements of the media have called it one of the worst kits ever. Er, why? an away shirt that has a definite link to the home, while still being highly original.

    What are TC contributors feelings about the adidas ‘side stripes’? I have always liked the sleeve applications but the need for increasingly prominent tournament logos means they are getting shorter and shorter. Placing them on the side of the jerseys means they are restored to their former glory, and if it’s a team with the same stripe colour the effect is quite striking – I can only imagine how nice an all red Bayern shirt with white stripes going all the way down the side and onto the shorts will be.

  261. Yeah, agreed Denis. Hopefully all that ‘one colour strip’ nonsense is over now. Not much coverage about Germany being in black socks for the first time since the late 50’s, but coupled with the plain shoulders it gives the whole strip a classical, timeless feel. The only thing that jars a bit for me is ironically the World Cup winners shield – is it really needed?

    But it is good to see Spain with royal blue shorts and navy socks. I think adidas have listened to the fans and, at least on the home strips, have dialled back the more radical elements to leave strips that we purists can enjoy!

    What do you think of the Spain away strip, Denis?

  262. It’s not my favourite-ever shirt but I don’t completely hate it – probably nostalgia for the Czech and Russian shirts at Italia 90!

  263. It is a bit ‘early 90’s’, isn’t it? It brings to mind some of the templates from that era without being too OTT, IMO. The journalist that called it ‘Paella vomit’ was just being rude!

  264. Yeah, I thought the reaction to that all yellow Newcastle strip (the season they got promoted a few years ago under Chris Hughton) was a bit rediculous, too. I liked it, but apparently it was ‘insipid’ and ‘disgusting’ and one of ‘the worst kits ever’…according to the press, anyway.

  265. i havent seen many of the euro 16 kits yet but i do like the adidas designs, especially the new trend of putting the stripes on the sides

    its not exactly traditional but somehow it retains the identity of the brand and yet dosnt over power the strip like having it on the shoulders does, ……not that i dislike the stripes on the shoulders or anything, having stripes on shoulders (3 for adidas and 2 for puma) takes me back to a lot of the classics and is as much a football thing for me as anything

  266. oh can i also add that Arsenal changed at wednesday because they were at away and used their “cup strip” not their away because its supposed to be their cup strip not their third

    so because reasons basically

  267. I agree with Martyn it is nice to see Spain back in royal shorts and navy socks, as I’m (just) under 30 the only time I can ever recall seeing Spain play in that look was against Scotland at Hampden circa 2010-2011 when their home socks were red, as were Scotland’s so the away navy ones were paired with the lighter blue shorts

    Probably taking things totally off topic but I feel the need to moan about what my own club (Hibernian) have been doing for the last few years which has greatly annoyed me, for the past few seasons except 2012-13 our main goalkeeper kit has been a coloured shirt, lime green since 2014, purple the year before that and yellow in 2011-12 paired with black shorts and socks which again is fine, but annoyingly if a side we are playing use dark socks our kitman has felt the need to make the keeper wear the regular home white shorts with white socks which looks awful in my eyes, why not just change the socks as required? I just don’t think GK kits look right with coloured tops being paired with white shorts and socks and by and large it’s rare to see, Newcastle 2006 is one of few examples I can think of where the kit was green/ white/ white. What makes the above worse is that by changing the gk kit to white shorts it more often than not creates more of a clash with most teams in the league using white shorts too!

    This season there has been a couple of glaringly bad kit choices by Hibs, our home kit is bottle green and white sleeves with white shorts and white socks and out away kit is all purple trimmed in lime, at Queen of the South away (who are in all blue this year) we wore purple and the two teams were barely distinguishable, surprised it was passed by the referee and a few week later we wore our regular home kit vs Raith Rovers who play in navy with white sleeves, white shorts and navy socks, again it was barely distinguishable with our green being so dark these days, the only way to really differentiate between the teams were by looking at the socks!

    We really need to use last years white away shirt paired with this seasons home shorts and socks or just release a new third kit as in the darker winter games it’s really going to be a nightmare when we play teams in blue and navy

  268. Just to add about gk kit moan we also have an all yellow GK kit at our disposal and haven’t used it in anger since pre-season 2014! It is definitely still a ‘current season’ kit as in the club shop it’s still on sale and has been updated to the alternative ‘Marathon Bet’ logo used this season

  269. Their was a time when i was younger when all goalkeeper kits were paired with the shorts and socks of the kit the team was using so im used to it, but then again their was a time when they would wear tops that didnt have any of the clubs logos on them, or were made by different manufacturers ….like they were some kind of mercenaries lol

    Never did understand why keepers need bright colours though, whenever i played at school i always wore deep navy blue, because i found people could pick out the goal better by quickly using me as a reference point

    Dark colours dont draw the strikers eye as much i learned, …..and i learned that from lev yashin before you ask……..but i soon found that if i wore dark colours the opposition wasnt as able to hit accurate long range or one time shots and my life got easyer

    Didnt seem to ever bother campos though lol

    And just to correct myself i just found out manchester uniteds away kit from 80-82 had adidas stripes down the side …so when i called it a new trend i guess i was wrong

  270. And no …im not saying i know lev yashin ………ionce read it in a book before anyone asks lol …….just being clear because their is always some numpty that will lol

  271. Think it was a superstition thing. He wore all black, I believe I’m right in saying to intimidate the opposition, as did Fabian Barthez years later. A few other GK’s have worn black as a tribute to Yashin. I read a few years ago that Petr Cech preferred bright GK kits because he thought that THAT intimidated the opposition, by making his tall frame look even bigger. Wasn’t Yashin also nicknamed the black cat?

    The new Germany GK home strip is black, but paired with white shorts and socks to avoid a clash with the home. That in itself raises a grey area, because I think all black would look better.

    Tony, I remember a green, yellow, or sometimes sky blue GK shirt being worn with the home shorts, as recently as the late 80’s (Dave Beasant in ’88 springs to mind). I don’t approve of that idea, but I agree that GK strips should be one colour. I can remember Schmeichel’s from the mid 90’s that he hardly ever changed was mostly green, and lasted from memory for about 3 years too! From memory when he did change it was for a white and black one with Umbro’s psychedelic lightning on the front.

  272. Ipswich generally had a red change goalkeeper’s shirt during the 1980’s adidas and early umbro era. I think the first yellow goalkeeper top they wore was in 1991/92.

  273. I personally have not a problem with yellow. Ipswich had a yellow and blue away kit from the late 1960’s up until they switched to adidas in 1977. I actually wouldn’t mind going back to it, although I would be in a minority.

  274. Tried to ban, probably. Germany have carried some representation of the flag colours in every kit since the mid 80’s, if only as a small element of trim. Spain have also had their flag on the back, under the collar, a few times, and even quite recently used it on the shorts instead of the badge. So no, I don’t think so. Also, if you’re being pedantic the Belgium away kit has the stripes arranged horizontally whereas the flag is vertical.

  275. On another subject I read today that Barcelona’s away shirt next season will be purple and pink. Purple? Correct me if I’m wrong, but what colour do you get if you mix red and blue…? And if the home kit is (as has been rumoured) a return to blue and red stripes, what do they wear against, say, Chelsea? Oh yeah, the third will be teal, so that’ll be the one then. Please Nike, stop doing UTTERLY SUPERFLUOUS KITS PLEASE.

  276. Martin – countries are allowed to have a small flag like the one you mentioned Spain having, but other similar representations are clamped down on, though I’m not sure why. I’d imagine that’s why Germany’s 2014 kit had so much red on the chevron.

    I’ll dig out the regulations later

  277. Few comments to touch on

    I dont think it matters what colour gk top a team uses i think it matters more when the home and away kits are in a rivals colour

    I also remember liverpool and bruce groballaar (or however you spell it) having a yellow top with the red home shorts and socks as a gk kit, like i say it dosnt bother me when they do this, its a tradition to me thanks to my 80s/90s upbringing

    Lev yashin was called the black cat, he wore black to be intimidating but has also said he did it to not make the offence aware of his position easilly, so it was also practical

    If i remember correctly david seaman also had black kits too, his 94 kit with grey stars almost qualifys as world war 2 dazzle camo ……the jagged stuff they used to paint ships with

    Germanys chevron was supposed to be a flag it had black and gold in it too denis it just wasnt that noticable, but like martin says they usually do this but i dont think regulation is the reason why i think its personal preference

  278. Today against Aberdeen, Hamilton Accies wore a the French away kit (with added printing of sponsors and a Hamilton badge) as a tribute after what happened in Paris, whilst I suppose the notion is fairly admirable, I’m not sure I like teams other than those in the local area to the atrocity doing these kind of things

  279. There’s been quite a lot of negative reaction to the pink away kit, that’s for sure. The home kit having white sleeves on it seems to be getting some stick too.

  280. Having just saw the new Scotland Adidas kits, I can’t describe how disappointed I am with them, the tartan effect would have been quite nice if it was a plain blue shirt, the white sleeves completely jar the look of the kit, sadly there is a complete absence of any red in the kit at all, so it’s back to blue shirts, white shorts and blue socks, not only is the absence of red disappointing but the omission of ‘ALBA’ anywhere on the kit is a pity, something we had carried on the kits somewhere (usually socks) for more than a decade now

    The away kit is pink and black, the kit doesn’t look horrendous, it’s not great but not brutal. Again sadly the kit seems to omit ‘ALBA’ on the kit anywhere.

    Earlier I posted wondering whether Scotland had been ‘downgraded’ by Adidas and it’s still hard to tell as the shorts have the Adidas logo on the rear of the shorts like all other top grade Adidas teams but unlike top Adidas teams we have shoulder stripes and the Adidas logo to the front of the socks with no team specific stitching on the socks at all so I think we pretty much have been downgraded which is a shame.

    Adidas are my favourite kit manufacturers so it’s a massive disappointment to have these kits especially when everything from the 2013/15 range was fantastic, right from the kits through to the training range hit the spot perfectly, fully bespoke kits with team coloured training wear to now have everything look so generic and ‘teamweary’. Had such high hopes having saw kits like the German, Spanish, Swedish, Danish and Belgian kits which are all great.

    Fingers crossed for a good qualifying campaign so Adidas think we are worth bothering about in two years time!

  281. Scotland home and away kits are team wear – the home has the same template as Ukraine home and Bosnia away. Also the sleeve stripes will probably be carried forward on team wear contracts – side stripes on main ones. Could also be a short term solution with a new kit to come out late next year for the WC qualifiers. That’s happened before.

    Re flag colours on strips – I find it bizarre that it’s ‘banned’ when they’ve been used on strips for decades – Germany, France, Holland and Italy have all at some point or another used their flag colours as integral parts of the strips. Italy’s latest away kit uses it in a very obvious way!

  282. Manchester City wore their all-luminous yellow third kit tonight and Joe Hart wore a more conventional all-yellow kit, but still a horrendous clash

  283. Martyn:- the short term kit thing is wishful thinking, the kit has been advertised here as being for the next two years! Sadly in reality it’s a downgrading by Adidas from bespoke to teamwear which is a shame

  284. The new Wales away looks like a team wear kit too, so don’t think its particular to Scotland – we’ll have to see what the Wales home comes out like to be sure.

  285. The new Wales home shirt is the same design, but basically is plain red with white collar and adidas stripes.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xlEjv2Jvvzc/VkG68nwCohI/AAAAAAAAwp8/meKquh1THdk/s1600/Wales-Euro-2016-Home-Kit%2B%25282%2529.jpg

    We’ve gone for the classic, no nonsense approach, even going back to white shorts. I reckon if the shirt followed the Northern Ireland and Bosnia design with having a horizontal stripe in a slightly darker shade of red and outlined in white, it would have almost perfectly mimicked the classic 1984 adidas kit.

    However I do think the previous shirt with green trim worn in the qualifiers was a better shirt. I’m still not entirely convinced with the away kit yet, I reckon it’s probably going to be a “grower”…

  286. It’s still a teamwear kit though, isn’t it? If Wales were a main contract I think the potential would have been great – I personally like it when green is used on the shirts (I’m thinking of that first Lotto shirt amongst others). While this could be called close to the 1958 strip, it would be even closer with ‘side stripes’. I’d also like to see Wales play with red shirts, white shorts and green socks – the RU team did this a few years ago and it looked great.

  287. Saw the Bundesliga 2 match between Heidenheim and Freiburg last night – both playing in Nike team wear kits, Heidenheim in the ‘chest tram line’ one and Freiburg in the ‘fading checks’. I really like that checked one – it won’t work in every colour scheme, that’s true (Bradford’s version looks awful), but for Freiburg it looks great. Paired with black backs, black shorts and red socks, the overall effect is of a dark, but not too dark, strip. I think criticism of this team wear thing is getting a little OTT – surely the clubs can select which template they want? So finding one to appease the fans shouldn’t be too difficult. Freiburg for their part always seem to go for the daring option – stripes, hoops, checks, faded snow effect – all used since the contract with Nike began.

  288. Martyn, my biggest bugbear with teamwear – Nike’s, anyway – is that the designs are generally limited to two colours.

    Arsenal will be wearing that awful third kit at Norwich tomorrow.

  289. Another Nike teamwear bugbear is that any effect on the front isn’t repeated on the back best example being the fade one from last year, looked nice in Barca’s version but generally looked stupid on teamwear due to the totally blank back

  290. Yeah, fair comment Denis – I accept it doesn’t work for every team, but if it’s a team that uses two colours most of the time (like Freiburg, as mentioned) then its not a problem IMO. I actually prefer the team wear templates to some of the main contract ones!

    Several bizarre strip choices in the PL this weekend – Watford in their away kit at Villa – explain, please?
    Arsenal at Norwich – third kit…?
    Newcastle in the white and teal away kit at Palace…?
    And finally, why did Stoke not wear alternative shorts at Sunderland? Surely their white home pair with the away kit would have been better than black shorts against a team in black shorts?

  291. Interesting, Denis. I know what you mean about that Coventry brown kit – brown isn’t really that bad, if done in the right way – for example, St Pauli, who are so anti establishment as to feature a skull and crossbones as an alternative badge, and want Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Hannover thrown out of TV negotiations for breaking the ’50+1′ rule, have always proudly donned brown. Sometimes its a deep brown, sometimes its bronzey, but its still brown. Pink is a colour I always like to see, too. Why not? its bright, its eye catching, and it has featured in some really interesting kits, both in football and RU (Cardiff Blues and Stade Francais to name just two). Its also a colour so ingrained in Juventus’ history that it regularly appears as an away choice.
    But the point of the article – I have read the comment about Norwich’s strips’ main problem being the size of the sponsor, and I’m inclined to agree. I like that third kit, as its different, and as far as the home, I’ve always liked halved and quartered strips. The problem is that the Aviva logo, and its yellow back ground, bites too much into the green. Its a similar problem away. Norwich and Peterborough and Lotus/Proton perfectly remedied this by having dark logos that would work on both green and yellow, but the Aviva one causes difficulties against a green, or half green, background. This is why the third is arguably the best kit, because it avoids this potential hazard. I wonder if Aviva would consider a black or dark navy version of their logo?

    Should we start a new debate off the back of this? We’ll call it : ‘Kits that have been called disgusting but were actually nice’.

    As a supporter of German football one that always pops up is the mid 90’s VfL Bochum – the one with large rainbow print on one side of the shirt. Garish, yes. Eye catching, certainly. But horrible? Not so sure.

  292. Well i am one of thosr guys that LIKES sheffield wednesdays 1984 grey and purple away AND birminghams “paintbox” kit martyn

    So i agree with that topic title

  293. Actually, Wednesday have had more than a few kits down the years that could easily fall under that category – I remember the orange one from the mid 90’s when it came out divided opinion, but I liked it, and it still looks good now – just like Derby’s maroon one in the same template. But when faced with the prospect of updating such a well known kit as Wednesday’s suppliers sometimes have to come up with new ideas.
    That Birmingham paintbox kit…mmm. Not sure about that one – certainly memorable! Same problem with Birmingham – all blue, blue and white shorts, blue penguin, stripes…and who could forget the ‘Germany’ away shirt?

  294. That clash from the A-League is a shocker, even moreso considering the referee thought it was a clash, but got overruled by a colourblind A-League administrator.

    I felt that Whitehawk’s choice of change kit at Dagenham & Redbridge in the FA Cup wasn’t ideal either, magenta shirts at a team in predominantly red. Rather daft considering their home kit is red. Veggie Green Rovers wearing their lime green kit at Oxford wasn’t particularly ideal either in all honesty.

  295. That Oxford game was a shocker – only United’s navy shorts avoided a total clash.

    The Watford / Norwich game wasn’t a problem – Norwich wore green shirts with yellow shorts. Still a little tricky from certain angles, so personally I’d have used the home shorts. What did you think of that one, Denis? I know you blogged it recently.

    Juventus played Sevilla last night in that ill matched combination of third shirt with gold trim with home shorts with white – this is the inherent problem of the old ‘two shorts from two strips being the same colour’ – I personally think the ‘half and half’ third shorts would’ve been fine.

  296. A real annoyance clubs having so many items in the same colours, Adidas are having a particularly bad year for that, do Juve not have about 3 pairs of black shorts this season and Man Utd having 3 pairs of white and red socks, needless

    I thought the Watford v Norwich game was fine from a clash point of view, the further into the season we get, the more I like the Norwich kits, the massive sponsor gap even bothers me less!

  297. Watching Dinamo Zagreb vs Bayern last night, on a night game, the all navy Zagreb strip vs the all red Bayern actually clashed. Don’t laugh at me on this one! The non contrasting trim on the FCB strip meant that it was two dark teams against each other, and while it was just about fine to follow on TV, I can’t help thinking that Bayern should’ve worn their all white away kit.

  298. @Martyn – Norwich in their away at Watford looked fine, but wearing the green shorts would have eliminated any confusion which may have existed.

  299. You mean the one birmingham revived this year martyn

    Its memorable but not to my taste ……….i do however class the 97 orange wednesday shirt as a classic …i loved it, …..i also love the umbro kit set we had between 92 and 96 …….all those pinstripes ….including the confusing white one we wore with the yellow away shorts at newcastle

    I do however also have a taste for the chocolate colour coventry wore in the 70s …….they had a talbot version but i preffer the none sponsored one

    I like that template in general though and it looks good in the other colours they made it in

  300. I see Newcastle wore their third kit at West Brom – probably the most contrasting of their three available kits to wear at the Baggies, but still a slight clash given the kit was navy with a bit of white (and pink) on the front.

  301. Saw that, Jon – wouldn’t really have a massive problem as there was a lot of contrast. Southampton in home kit as West Ham wasn’t great, I felt.

  302. Finally caught up with Festive period highlights, why Southampton didn’t wear green at Upton Park was beyond me! Also have Man Utd ever worn their third kit as it was originally intended ie black/ black/ white?

  303. No problems with Villa wearing their home kit at Sunderland today, compared to Soton wearing their home shirt v West Ham, Sunderland’s shirt is white with three red stripes, whereas Saints shirt is predominantly red with three white stripes.

  304. The weird thing about Villa wearing claret and blue at Sunderland is that they wore their away kit at Southampton earlier this season.

    God knows what they’ll wear at Stoke

  305. Strangely, Liverpool are wearimg white at Exeter City in the FA Cup, when you’d have thought they’d be wearing the black third strip.

  306. Don’t think there was a huge problem with that one – Exeter’s strip had mostly red and black on it anyway, so all white away was fine. All black would’ve just confused matters (not that that has been unusual this season so far!).

  307. I don’t think black shirts would have confused problems of worn with white shorts and socks. But that’s just my opinion, it’s the shirt colour that matters.

    Also notice Hibernian were wearing purple at Raith Rovers, whose navy shirts with white sleeves would definitely have clashed with their home kit. But purple still isn’t ideal against navy to be honest.

  308. Having seen a picture of the game it doesn’t look too bad and better than the game at Starks Park earlier in the season where we turned up in green with white sleeves/ white/ white and they had navy with white sleeves/ white/ navy with white stripes down side, this time round we were in all purple and they had navy with white sleeves/ white/ white which provided a hell of a lot more contrast than last time! Still us is white/ green/ white would have just been best situation!

  309. Denis Hurley says:

    “Liverpool seem to be on a quest to Maintain The Integrity Of The Kit (hereafter known as MITOTK) as they haven’t mixed kits at all this season – wearing the black shirt would have meant doing this due to the FA Cup’s stricter kit rules.

    That said, the all-white is fairly okay as Exeter’s shirt is far more red than white, but when a better option exists it should be used.”

  310. Probably just so it gets used at some point I’d imagine! They pretty much themselves stated it was a superfluous kit when it was released!

  311. Had to share this one …..it was bloody confusing

    i was wayching a match between west ham and manchester city from 1970-71 the other day (long before my time ….but i like watching them …football seems simpler …no sponsors ..no surplus trim ….caked in mud …brilliant, takes me back to playing at school)

    Anyway it was united in claret and blue with white shorts and i think white socks vs a city side in sky blue white and black on a surface that can be classed as swampland at best

    Not only did united clash with city they clashed with the mud …..it was like watching a set of floating sky blue arms and white legs playing man city lol

  312. Sounds like that very match Andrew, I remember seeing that goal on many an own goals and gaffs tape over the years, pitch looked like a quagmire.

    Also, I think West Ham always wore their home kit at teams who wore blue (regardless of shade) at the time, as their away kit was sky blue with two claret bands. But does their kit really clash with sky blue, given that we don’t always associate Arsenal’s kit as clashing with any team that wear white? It’s pretty much debatable.

  313. There was of course a famous incident at Villa Park in 2009 Jon, when Villa had to switch to white because the ref felt that their home clashed with West Ham’s sky-blue away!

    Man Utd wearing white shirts and black shorts at Anfield today – I was going to say it must have been a while but it turns out they did it last season too!

  314. I remember that one – think that was down to Villa’s shirts having sky blue “raglan” sleeves on their shirt, and West Ham’s shirt having claret on the top part of the front of the shirt.

    I noticed that too about Man U’s kit…… that match cured my insomnia 😉

  315. Also, after watching a repeat of Match of the Day today, Bournemouth’s keeper wore an all-black kit whilst his team mates were wearing their home kit (which has a plain black back). That’s quite a bad clash in my opinion!

  316. Just thinking about Man Utd – are they the ‘best’ when it comes to dealing with clashes?

    They always seem to wear the most appropriate kit, i.e. never wearing away when not needed or third when away would suffice, and they almost always have alternative shorts and socks and use these correctly.

  317. It wasnt so much that the hamners clashed with city it was more a case of cos of the mud all you could see was their arms so they did

    A case of weather plus kits = hard to tell

    The shorts and socks being the same didnt help matters either

    You could tell who was who but it was difficult ….and the brown pitch blending with their shirts made it hillarious lol

  318. I agree with Denis that Man Utd are probably the best at dealing with clashes, if anything you could say too good as mentioned in other discussions on here that having multiple pairs of socks that are all white and red or red and black is totally needless! Off the top of my head this season it’s 3 pairs of white and red socks (albeit on one pair it’s a very bright red) and 2 pairs of black and red socks (again the shade of red being slightly different)

  319. Also of note, West Ham wore their navy third kit at Liverpool in the FA Cup, yet in the corresponding league fixture earlier this season, they wore the sky blue away kit.

    Must be a marketing ploy, or getting some mileage out of the navy kit!!!

  320. Indeed!

    Last season Atlético Madrid would have got away with their home kit due to it being more white than red, but this season’s shirt has far more red on it than any other Atleti home shirt in history. They should have retained last season’s seldom used grey kit for this fixture at least.

    In the past they have changed kit on occasion at the Nou Camp, notably 2014’s title decider where they wore yellow.

  321. It was one of those games where Atletico creating a red shorts clash would have been far more preferable than what happened.

  322. Bournemouth wearing what appears to be magenta at Palace, hardly ideal.

    In fact, none of their three kits this season are suitable for use at Palace in my eyes.

  323. Last night Hibs changing from green to purple against a team in blue, I hope after this season the club realises if we play in dark green we can’t also just have a dark away kit, only having bottle green and purple kits this season has resulted in a few nightmare clashes especially against teams in navy or blue. Last nights game being against Morton who play in blue and white hoops the home shirt would have been fine if we had change socks however Nike would only produce us a custom shirt and not custom shorts or socks so there are no teamwear colour matching socks available! I hope Hibs ditch Just Sport Pro when the contract ends in 2017, would love Umbro, Adidas or Macron instead

  324. heres something off topic ….cos ya know, talking about clashes is well and good but i feel like a change and …theirs no topic, or at least not one anybody cares about

    and im in the mood to share with some peeps what no one i know personally gives a rats about, and ……i need information, and you guys `are my best source

    you see i have a bit of a fascination for the little details,

    i dont know if anyone else feel the same?

    but i mean, whenever i create a kit for a FIFA mod, i feel i must put the correct kit details on their to date it correctly

    but their are a few things its hard to find the info on

    for example,

    climalite, climacool, techfit, formotion, are all names you have probably heared of, but i didnt know their were differences till a few days ago, ……climacool is used on replicas for example

    but its difficult to find out when this became the norm, john himself says some shirts were made of climacool material, so when did they become the “replica” standard instead of “matchday” standard

    its also difficult for me to find info on numbersets, most pics of any pre premiership standard numbers are wrong, (some kits on ebay have white borders round the numbers when video shows this didnt exist on machdays ….at least not on the ones i have seen anyways)

    its the same with nike and puma ect, …..but im dedicated to making and collecting a nice collection of logos and numbersets fonts and …..even tags and labels, ….yes ..tags and labels (sad i know …..even i know that) just so my kits are perfect

    tell ya its frustrating though …that anything pre 2010 is hard to get pics of lol

    anyone ever think about devoting a section to info on this, i would be in my element lol

    but no …seriously …i need as much info as i can get my hands on lol

  325. actually here is another interesting question

    arm patches

    i believe (but correct me if im wrong …im going on my own rough research) that the football league introduced them in 1989-1990

    but i have found evidence that they also created what i had believed was something introduced in 1993-1994 by the premiership

    gold sleeve patches for the winners

    http://liverpool-shirt.narod.ru/1990-00/1990-91/home/leag/90-1-3-hls-f.jpg

    http://liverpool-shirt.narod.ru/1990-00/1991-92/away/leag/91-2-14-ass-bad.jpg

    i have seen pics of liverpool wearing these patches, but i dont know if

    A) this was an end of 89-90 season thing or if they were worn in 90-91 like is now traditional

    and B) if this was carried on by Arsenal in 91-92

    and most importantly C) …if this was even true (the site looks like one of those fan sites, the same replica kit salesmen that sell the numbers with the borders on i previously mentioned ….i mean judging from the green behind the patch in the second pic i would say its the 1991-92 kit ……….a kit they wouldnt have worn them on because arsenal were champions)

    only thing i am certain of is it didnt happen with leeds (cos premiership obviously)

    so far i havent found any evidence that it was used in any other seasons though

    i have my panini cards for example but those contain pics from both seasons for arsenal and a lot of the pics are from before they won ….they would have worn the patch during 91-92 leeds season or at the end of the season depicted …and of course they are often unclear …pic quality wasnt as good or the cards are degraded somewhat

    and its difficult to tell what season the liverpool kit is from since well…..its the same paint flecked candy shirt in both 89-90 & 90-91

    so yeah, ….any info?

    im feeling unsure cos of the flimsyness of the info (it seems like a scam or some moron showing of his fake because he thinks its genuine)

  326. Well i do often find stuff on their but a lot of the time the info is elusive at best or just plain missing because THEY dont know

    for example

    In 89 -90 the football league introduced the sleeve patch, but i have found a picture of a gold version apparently worn by liverpool in 1990-91

    http://liverpool-shirt.narod.ru/1990-00/1990-91/home/leag/90-1-10-hss-sl-2.jpg

    now unfortunatly the same site shows the green away kit from 92-93 wearing them as well…..the year arsenal were champions …….so its less than reputable

    But i would like to know if anyone knows

    A) if this isnt a fake thing
    B) was it only for a year

    The only team i know that wouldnt have used them is leeds ( cos …premier league) and i have my panini pro set cards but they are unclear

    The pics were taken over both the 90-91 & 91-92 seasons and whilst arsenal have both the kits they used in those seasons the pics arnt exactly in HD or the same exact colours as each other

    and lwhilst iverpool have the same kit for both years …. the liverpool pics could have been taken in 91-92 …..thus …all are inconclusive

    So yeah ….any help appreciated anyway lol

  327. Also, I don’t recall any gold version for champions until Premier League came in.

    Arsenal added a ‘League Champions 1990-91’ scroll under their crest for 91-92 but these things were left up to the clubs

  328. No it was 89-90 i think, i mean im not 100% on that but im pretty sure i read it on the top of a page in the actual true colors book somewhere

    If i didnt i know i definitly read it somewhere ……most likely on historical kits or somewhere like that lol

  329. and i too believed that gold patches were a premier league thing, first worn by Manchester United in 1993-94

    but this is something i cannot NOT research

    embroider is different though, thats definitly a club thing

  330. Stoke have unveiled a one off all white third shirt for their game at Bournemouth on Saturday. Apparently their home shirt clashes. Really? Apparently it won’t be released as a replica.

  331. Great read that Denis, enjoyed reading the bit about Arsenal’s FA Cup shock in the bruised banana kit the most. Every time I see that kit I see Mickey T’s free kick fly into the top corner 🙂

    On the subject of Stoke’s third kit, I’m surprised they hadn’t done this last season whilst their kits were still branded as Warrior for the visit to Crystal Palace. They wore the home kit there and it was just about passable, so compare that to Bournemouth (whose kit is more black than red). Still, it’s a functional shirt that alleviates any doubt of a kit clash.

    Maybe someone should whisper the idea to Palace, who have worn the home kit at Stoke, when maybe they should have stockpiled some of last season’s away shirts and ironed the new sponsor’s logo?

  332. Tony,
    I feel your pain! I found myself conned a few years ago by an e-bay seller who offered a printed version of the 14-15 Bayern away shirt – illustrating the official Bayern font (used since 11-12). When I received it it did in fact have a red version of adidas’ WC ’14 font. I wasn’t impressed. If I was to do the same for FCB I would have to be careful because the font in Germany is particular to each club; Bayern have stuck to a reasonable level of consistency but have changed from time to time. It really annoys me when I see classic shirts being sold with the wrong font on them.
    As regards to gold badges the first time I was aware of it in England was in the PL. I didn’t think the FL did it. As stated, clubs very often added text beneath the badge; I know Forest did it when they won the European Cup in ’79, even though it had no relevance in the league at the time. Also one off kits and special trim is a nightmare when doing FIFA or other games. Auction sites can be very unscrupulous as we all know, especially with regards to prototypes being offered as the real thing.
    On the subject of Adidas and their various shirt types, you don’t seem to see Tech Fit anymore, since this job has been taken over by base layers. Am I right?
    Incidentally, the situation I referred to with the ‘wrong font’ kit from e-bay was remedied by the seller refunding it, no questions asked. It also had the wrong sleeve patches on it and wonky lettering on the Climacool text, so I don’t really think they had a choice!

  333. That sounds like a bad ripoff job martyn

    Yes i thought the premier league were the first to use gold sleeve patches in my eyes too, till i found those pics, but its figuring out if they are genuine

    I know some clubs have embroidery on occasion but thats not the thing here in england unless its a special occasion like a cup final

    These patches are of more interest to me at the moment

    i dont think its a wash job dennis …..i do however dispute their use just for the fact that same site has them on the green away kit from 91 ….arsenal were the current champs that year

    As for the numbers …..im talking the pre-premiership numbers

    Each club here had numbers made by their kit supplier

    So manchester united had umbro numbers for example, sheffield wednesday had puma and blackburn had asics …….its hard to tell whats fake and what isnt

  334. On the subject of rare or one-off clash kits that were never commercially available, which ones can everybody think of?

    As a City fan, the all-yellow strip sported during a 4-0 thrashing at Arsenal springs to mind, as does the yellow Kappa effort of 97-98 paired with black shorts and socks. And the all-maroon kit worn during the latter part of 89-90, accompanied by the granddad collar from the previous, candy-striped away (recently mentioned on here) also merits a mention.

    As for other clubs, I remember Arsenal’s navy blue kit from their 98-99 UCL campaign – Denis, was this worn against Lens at Wembley?

    I feel I’m showing my age here. 30 this week!

  335. Yes re: the navy Arsenal kit being worn at home to Lens.

    How about the white adidas/Candy Liverpool shirt from 88/89 and, I think, 89/90?

    Happy birthday!

  336. Yeah that’s right Nick, a 1-0 ‘home’ loss.

    That maroon City kit was because the white and maroon stripes was deemed to clash with the likes of QPR and Sheffield Wednesday – the yellow kit was developed to solve the problem but met a nasty end after the visit to Highbury!

    Coincidentally, a white Chelsea third from 1990-91 was posted on a Facebook group I’m in today – can’t link as it’s closed – and it too falls into this category.

  337. Wednesday themselves produced a rather bespoke white kit in 2013 -14 to avoid a clash at milwall i think,

    dont know if it was worn again but it was worn with the blue home shorts despite having its own pair of white ones

    Millwall returned the favor with their own orange number ……but they had to borrow our previous away for the first half

    Witch begs the question …..why didnt they bring they bring it from the start but these things happen i suppose

  338. As far as Bayern goes, there is the famous ‘Brazil’ away kit worn as a superstition at Kaiserslautern because they had trouble winning there and it was felt that dressing like Brazil would solve the problem! This was in about 1984, sponsored by Iveco. The shorts, being shiny and polyester, were so light as to be almost a teal / turquoise colour, and made an appearance paired with the home shirt in the ’87 EC Final. Not sure why as Bayern’s normal shorts at the time were red and Porto’s were blue. It looked bloody awful. That shirt has never to my knowledge been sold as an ‘official’ replica. Similarly, in the late 90’s when Bayern’s home kit was dark navy they wore a one off, non replica all red strip for the local derby matches with 1860. And in the early 90’s they wore a kit that was the same template as the 94-96 Germany kit, only in red white and black – I think it was in a cup final against Bremen (again, for no reason I can think of). All of these were, as far as I know, never sold as replicas. They also had a prototype of the white strip with the red and blue tramline worn in the ECF of ’96, with the main colour of black instead of white, the season before. I’ve seen it pop up on auction sites but never ‘officially’.

  339. Denis, I recall John covering a red Chelsea third kit from the 90/91 season in the updates section of this site, but I think the white kit may have been used the season before at Crystal Palace.

    It wasn’t the only one-off kit used that season. For the fixture at QPR, Chelsea wore their old jade away shirt (from the 87/88 season) with home shorts and socks.

  340. You’re right Jon, HFK confirms that it was indeed 1989-90.

    Something I only discovered recently about another third kit used that season – Liverpool used their white third strip at Villa Park in 89-90 too, even though Villa didn’t have the Hummel ‘striped halves’ style. The Liverpool kit differed from the 88-89 third in that there were no grey stripes between the red ones down the sleeves.

  341. I remember seeing that one in Liverpool football annual and wondered how come they weren’t in the usual grey away kit.

    On the subject of rare 3rd kits, Everton in 85/86 wore a very rare white jersey at Shrewsbury in the League Cup in October 1985. I doubt it was ever sold as a replica but did see a matchworn shirt on eBay.

  342. Didn’t Everton also wear a white 3rd shirt (sort of 88-89 style with v neck and thin diagonal checkerboard detailing) in 92-93? Think I saw a matchworn one on eBay 3-4 years ago.

    Also, what about the hallowed blue prototype arsenal shirt from 88-90? A picture has never surfaced, but apparently it was knocked up in the man utd 3rd shirt style.

    And the proto Liverpool bruised banana from 1990-91 in white and purple (a version was on eBay approx 6 years ago).

  343. I like it when clubs manage to produce 3 kits that tick all the boxes yet cover all the bases

    Palace ….90-91 ….3 kits same template one red and blue striped one all blue and one all blue,….they still created a yellow and black 4th but thats palace

    Liecester 92-93 ….3 kits …same template ….all blue all white all yellow

    Same in 1996-97 ….blue and white, white and blue …all yellow

    Man united circa 80s (possibly earlier) red and white home, white and black away, all blue third

    Classics

    No need to screw around with anything

  344. HArry (no. 534)….. that particular Everton shirt was a third kit from 87/88 which was never worn in any match, but replicas were most definitely sold. I certainly recall a lad I was in school with who had that particular shirt, with a small NEC logo, which was common for childrens/small sized shirts (up to 30/32″, as shirts were still commonly sold in chest size).

    A few have surfaced over the years on eBay. The shirt from 92/93 was a white shirt of a different design, with a blue v-neck wraparound collar, think it was used for the game at Aston Villa due to both the blue home and the salmon pink and navy away shirts clashing.

  345. I’ll take back what I said about that white Chelsea kit Denis, they did indeed use it once in the 90/91 season at Crystal Palace, which makes a grand total of FIVE kits used that season.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ZoWNaXqZo

    The usual away kit that season was white with red diagonal chequers, or rhombuses for those of you good with shapes, but that kit combined with the Football League being super-nitpicky with colour clashes saw other kits being used. Here they are in chronological order.

    Palace (A) – 28/8/90 – all white (carried over from 89/90)
    QPR (A) – 1/9/90 – jade shirts (carried over from 87/88!), blue shorts and socks
    Coventry (A) – 1/4/91 – red shirts, white shorts, red socks, featured in the update on this site

    Makes me think the red shirts worn at Coventry were required because all four other kits clashed.

    The following season they ended up having a copy of Everton’s yellow and blue “line graph” jerseys as 3rd choice and stopped this 5 kits in a season nonsense.

  346. Strange musing that is matt my laddo

    But im personally not against both teams changing even if i would try to avoid it myself

    Thing you need to realise though is that we were produced by puma that season whilst dale had fila and milwall had macron

    we have no idea how far in advance either company needs to be asked for a 3rd kit design, you cannot plan for who you play against in the cup if you only know a few weeks earlier (thanks to replays and reschedualing)

    Perhaps wednesday had already asked in prep for the milwall game and couldnt speed up the process in time for a rochdale game we had only found out about a few weeks previous

    Perhaps this is why milwall didnt get their third till half time against us

    What we should REALLY be asking is why wernt we given the opportunity to borrow rochdales white away shirt with our blue home shorts whilst they used their blue and black home

    Easilly purchased from the club shop dude

  347. I’ve got Chelsea v Man City on TV at the moment. City wearing their illuminous yellow third kit, but Thibaut Courtois is wearing an all yellow kit, rather than the usual turquoise. How has the referee allowed this to continue???

  348. Tony, Dale have had history around changing all too quickly when there’s been a clash. We’d worn white v Bristol R a few weeks previously.

    I could bore you for hours…

  349. Courtois wearing all yellow was a crazy choice today

    At Easter Road today there was a good example of teams being forced to adhere to stupid rules, in the first half the Alloa substitutes warmed up Pitchside wearing royal blue training sweatshirts which was perfect as no clash with Hibs in dark green and white and Alloa in Amber and black hoops, in the second half the subs were made to follow the rules and wear training bibs whilst warming up….. The only bibs they had were bright orange which at a distance could have easily been mistaken for a player on the pitch if there had been an incident in front of where they were warming up

  350. Its not a bad thing matt

    Again …..im not for the practice but im not totally against it either and as previously mentioned here its not an uncommon practice (arsenal)

    I would rather the referees used common sense someimes (like i say a simple ruling telling us to borrow your away would have been a simpler solution) but if a club decides to change aswell its not a problem

    Visability IS priority here and i think we forget this here sometimes with respect to the “unwritten rules” of clashes (those same rules that say only the away team should change)

  351. Couldn’t help but notice Man U changed into their white away kit for no reason tonight. And I thought they had an optometrist on their payroll?

  352. They seem to have a habit of unnecessarily changing into their away kit against teams that have amber in their kit, they wore white at Wolves a few years ago and likewise at Hull a couple of seasons ago.

  353. Well yes i know THAT dennis no one is THAT retarded ….for some reason the word dont appears to be missing from my post

    As in “they DONT say that only the away team has to change) …..But surely you can forgive me ……..since.i think its clear from the rest of the post what i actually meant lol

  354. What constitutes a clash – practically 50% of games involving Santos…..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSIyIFjq_2Q

    This is quite a poor one if you ask me, definitely don’t need a colour TV licence either. And as it’s Brazil, there is one thing that is a dead cert…….. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!

    Meanwhile this one from 1991 would get Denis in a real hot funk… thankfully when these two sides play these days, common sense prevails.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nKHeQ9jPbY

  355. There are several instances down the years of teams refusing to change, particularly against bitter rivals. This is probably one of them. Then there are teams that change when they’re away whether there is a clash or not. I don’t see a problem with that unless it creates a clash – its more of a fair practice with regards to replica shirt buying fans, ie, an away shirt gets a decent amount of coverage. Similarly a third kit will often be used unnecessarily to get it ‘sold’. What irritates me is when elements cross over from the other kits and the wrong ones are used…for example Juventus using the standard home shorts with the away kit meaning the trim doesn’t match – from gold to white! Germany did a similar thing in WC 2010 when the away shorts were white – playing Ghana they had to play with mismatched trim (and numbers). I believe it then became a good luck charm because they then wore all black against Argentina and Uruguay where there wasn’t a shorts clash.

    On to another thing – do Leverkusen count as being the first of the big four leagues to officially unveil a 16/17 kit?
    http://www.footyheadlines.com/2016/02/jako-bayer-leverkusen-16-17-home-kit.html
    This brings to an end a long association with adidas, but I like Jako so it’ll hopefully give them some more exposure. No word yet on the away / third, but I would guess all red and all white respectively.

  356. It’s an absolute shocker isn’t it?

    This one from 2006 is a shocker too, Ajax v Feyenoord. Quite why Feyenoord decided on a white away kit when their home shirt is 50% white, and not had a third kit option specifically for Ajax (at the very least) was beyond belief!

    http://youtu.be/xM_QrE02PFY

    If only the Netherlands had Rob van Styles as referee… 🙂

  357. Just seen a leaked version of the new Barcelona kit, very much influenced by the ’92 EC winners shirt. It got me thinking – what would TC contributors say is the ‘definitive’ Barca look? Because Nike have constantly fiddled around with it for virtually their whole contract. I would say that I like to see them in blue and red striped shirts with red as the dominant colour, but with blue shorts and red and blue hooped socks; Away yellow shirt with a red and blue sash, yellow shorts and socks; third all teal with red trim. Even as a Bayern fan I like to see our rivals for ‘old big ears’ dressed well. On that note, I was also wondering why Leicester have never had an orange away kit, being as they are ‘The Foxes’? I guess amber is as close as they have ever got, but orange would work IMO, maybe with the black and sky sashed ‘Fosse’ kit as a third?

  358. For me the definitive Barça kit is the broad blue and dark red stripes look, blue shorts and blue and dark red socks. Away yellow with red and blue sash/side stripe and third kit the sane as the away but light blue instead of yellow.

    Pretty much their kits of the 1980’s.

    Wouldn’t mind a modern day version of the early 90’s Kappa kit worn by the “Dream Team”, though I doubt Barça would have any features of the kit in white (even the numbering) these days.

  359. Kappa have always done smart kits IMO – some great offerings for Werder Bremen / Wolfsburg / Dortmund / Monchengladbach / Juventus over the years. I think yellow is now the standard trim for Barca because of the close association with Catalunya. But you’re right, white used to be the trim colour, even if memory serves at the start of the Nike era